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 The meaning of the refugee crisis

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26PostSubject: Re: The meaning of the refugee crisis   Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:27 pm

reg, #25, re: "SR wrote: 'Do you think Hungary would be better governed today if he'd won in 2002?'

This is like a Zen koan. The surface is not the same in my response as the depths. At the surface level, I do not support the right-wing agenda that was already formed at the time in 2002. Yet if they stayed in power, some level of polarization, isolation of collective shadow elements would have been spared. Obviously, part of Hungarian society wanted his kind to succeed and sooner or later they would have expressed their point. Everyone was surprised in 2002 that the other guys won the election by a narrow margin, almost without exception most of the right became somewhat
paranoid and they started to nourish weird conspiracy theories - the international liberal conspiracy or the Jews or the feminists or whatever did them in. They just could not grant that they simply lost an election - which was a natural risk on the other side."

It's very difficult for me to understand the political demographics in Hungary, which apparently have remained in place for centuries. I'm referring to a kind of ideological factionalism that seems to operate outside the usual social and economic class structure, meaning that extreme rightists from many different backgrounds seem to be willing to unite against everyone else, to the point where they can control or powerfully influence the government, the economy, and all other institutions. I'm not including the rise of fascism in Germany, Itay, and Japan in the 1930's, because these movements started with a single, reasonably coherent right-wing ideology and seemed just as willing to presecute other rightists who didn't "toe the Pary Line" as they were leftists or moderates. Since there's an Eastern element deep under the surface in the Hungarian social contract, I'm wondering if there aren't parallels with various historical movements in India, China, and other Far Eastern countries...

re: "As things are, I think Hungary serves a valuable example to the EU and to many types of people who are found on borders or peripheries. Otherwise, though be my homeland of origin and my present place, I would not bring it up so many times though I grant you I can be biased towards perceiving things from here. There is now a lesson to be drawn from this turn of history for many other kinds of people, including South American immigrant to the US. Polarization and isolating the traditionalist male-female roles, going back to the old power structure does not work and it is not the way towards the future. If you get feedback and you are willing to play by the rules, you can point to the future even if you lose on the surface. I think under the tyranny and hopelessness here, many souls are drawing lessons of being absolutely non-tyrannical and having a flexible but strong view of the future. It might happen though that these lessons are not put in place at the spot they were formed at. I cannot but think of all the Hungarians who became celebrated in other parts of the world in the twentieth century though they had spent part of their youth or childhood in a weird and backwards society - mathematics would not be the same without them for one thing. However, the difference between that past and the present is that education, books and the arts remained very strong all through these regimes (with the exception of a few years at the height of terror - such as 1944 or 1948-50), while the recent regime does not bode well for another wave of geniuses twenty or thirty years from now... Hungary without intellectuals is like Tibet without Buddhism."

I'm hoping that this is another case where the computer and telecommunications technology of the Information Age will empower individuals more than it empowers political or economic institutions. As long as the young potential intellectuals you are referring to have computers and even scanty access to the Internet, it' easy for me to imagine them educating themselves and one another. And remember, Buddhism in Tibet has apparently survived the Chinese occupation by going underground, even without much aid from technology.
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27PostSubject: Re: The meaning of the refugee crisis   Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:32 am

This is a thought-provoking answer...

re: "It's very difficult for me to understand the political demographics in Hungary, which apparently have remained in place for centuries. I'm referring to a kind of ideological factionalism that seems to operate outside the usual social and economic class structure, meaning that extreme rightists from many different backgrounds seem to be willing to unite against everyone else, to the point where they can control or powerfully influence the government, the economy, and all other institutions. I'm not including the rise of fascism in Germany, Itay, and Japan in the 1930's, because these movements started with a single, reasonably coherent right-wing ideology and seemed just as willing to presecute other rightists who didn't "toe the Pary Line" as they were leftists or moderates. Since there's an Eastern element deep under the surface in the Hungarian social contract, I'm wondering if there aren't parallels with various historical movements in India, China, and other Far Eastern countries..."

I am just wondering and reseaching... There is a very simply east-west breaking line in the country since about one thousand years, when Christianity was forcefully introduced by the first king Stephen who was about as humanist as the Islamic State.

Hungarians had a tribal type of religion similar to some Native Americans, using drumming with the same type of large framedrums, with horses as sacred animals. However, these ancestors wer about as aggressive as the Mongols in the early Middle Ages, only smaller. Stephen consolidated a newly founded kingdom in 1000 A.D. whose father Geyza already converted for political reasons. He got a flat crown from the king of Byzantium (Constantinople, the East Roman Empire) then another one that was inserted and combined into today's crown. Stephen loved torturing people especially his relatives. He had various body parts of rebellious relatives nailed to doors and towers of several castles and poured liquid lead into people's ears.

All the Christian priests spoke German and people who sang the old songs on holidays etc. were sanctioned. As a result, very little remained on record from the former shamanistic religion of Hungarians. Despite my misgivings about Stephen's style, it is likely that the newly arrived nomadic Hungarians, allegedly relatives of the Huns and Scythians would not have been allowed to exist in Europe if the whole country wasn't converted to Christianity. Stephen wasn't able to protect people from later invasions however, while Western people built castles with walls against Hungarian nomadic robbers, he failed to do that. The later invasion from the east, Mongols came in 1241 and basically killed off one half of the country.

My guess is that this entire conflict keeps on dragging on through the centuries, similar to Native Americans conquered by whites. The present course of Orban is similar to Vata, the noted Pagan rebel of the 11th century.

I think Orban is really trying to blow up the entire union.

He is named as the most influential European politician by the US politcal magazine Politico recently.
Orban, Man of the Year
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28PostSubject: Re: The meaning of the refugee crisis   Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:05 pm

I'm replying to myself, but here is the latest news items I heard on the radio:
1. one of the people that committed the Paris terror attacks was planning and discussing stuff - in Hungary. Apparently he was among the refugees trying to cross into Hungary in the summer and he was allegedly a leader in exhorting fellow refugee applicants not to register with fingerprints. He was met by Belgian citizens here.

This was reported in the critical media, but it scores a big point for our Prime Minister. He can now say to the whole world, see, I was right. And literally, he was right in this respect, though the meaning of how his party uses this whole issue does not change substantially. The true answer would be what I heard from a security and intelligence expert later on on a separate show yesterday: to reinforce EU intel and screening operations, and to share intel far better than they do now. I suspect a mass color-blind policy of letting in refugees would not work, but that is the official policy here.

This expert - sounded pretty unbiased to me - said that presently the anti-terror operations of Eastern Europe share a lot of info with their Western colleagues, like Germany and Britain, but this is not a two-sided relationship, the Westerners share very little actual and useful information. Obviously this has to change very fundamentally if they want the system to work.
There is a mistrust concerning poorer and eastern countries, particularly here and in Bulgaria, about safeguarding useful current information from the Russian federation, Turkey and possibly even Arab countries with dubious allegiances. Also, he said security screening was developed in the US to an entirely different level than before 911, and the EU, despite the London and the Madrid terror attacks failed to do this.

2. I heard that they traced a cache of weapons that were stored in Hungary which actually ended with Daesh. I don't know more details about this though, but I prefer to look at media outlets here which relies on fair and unbiased reporting (government media does not) and the occasionally correct themselves about factual problems or any misrepresentation.

One Hungarian journalist, however, was sued today for lying to the authorities because he pretended to be a refugee from Kyrgyzstan and mixed in with the crowd to do his reporting, and he divulged his true identity only at the end.
This is not nice, it is downright hostile on the part of the government authorities, because Hungarian media law makes a specific exception to journalists in this case. If they could only see certain things they think the public should learn about if they disguise their identity, they should be able to do that as long as they later uncover themselves after reporting their stuff. Which I read back then and thought it was excellent and daring.
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29PostSubject: Re: The meaning of the refugee crisis   Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:29 pm

Reg, #27, re: "I am just wondering and reseaching... There is a very simply east-west breaking line in the country since about one thousand years, when Christianity was forcefully introduced by the first king Stephen who was about as humanist as the Islamic State. Hungarians had a tribal type of religion similar to some Native Americans, using drumming with the same type of large framedrums, with horses as sacred animals. However, these ancestors wer about as aggressive as the Mongols in the early Middle Ages, only smaller. Stephen consolidated a newly founded kingdom in 1000 A.D. whose father Geyza already converted for political reasons. He got a flat crown from the king of Byzantium (Constantinople, the East Roman Empire) then another one that was inserted and combined into today's crown. Stephen loved torturing people especially his relatives. He had various body parts of rebellious relatives nailed to doors and towers of several castles and poured liquid lead into people's ears. All the Christian priests spoke German and people who sang the old songs on holidays etc. were sanctioned. As a result, very little remained on record from the former shamanistic religion of Hungarians. Despite my misgivings about Stephen's style, it is likely that the newly arrived nomadic Hungarians, allegedly relatives of the Huns and Scythians would not have been allowed to exist in Europe if the whole country wasn't converted to Christianity. Stephen wasn't able to protect people from later invasions however, while Western people built castles with walls against Hungarian nomadic robbers, he failed to do that. The later invasion from the east, Mongols came in 1241 and basically killed off one half of the country."

I already knew all this from my fairly extensive readings in World History, but couldn't have recalled most of the details if asked. And this same general knowledge prompts me to back off and look at Hungary in terms of a big-picture view of the evolution of a number of quite diverse cultural, political, and spiritual civilizations all over Eurasia from the Sixth century down to today. There has continuous political warfare beteen between Western Christianity and Eastern Christianity throughout this period that obvious affected Hungary a great deal. And it looks to me like the same is true with the conflict between Islam and Christianity in the West and Islam and Mongol-style shamanistic Paganism in the East. I suspect that if King Stephen hadn't forced Christianity on all Hungarians, a lot of people in the Eastern part of Hungary might be Moslems today, as is true of the pockets of non-slavic ethnic groups studded all over Russia from the Baltic and Black Seas to the Pacific.

re: "My guess is that this entire conflict keeps on dragging on through the centuries, similar to Native Americans conquered by whites. The present course of Orban is similar to Vata, the noted Pagan rebel of the 11th century. I think Orban is really trying to blow up the entire union. He is named as the most influential European politician by the US politcal magazine Politico recently.
Orban, Man of the Year."

I suspect that Orban is hoping Hungary will become a major focal point in a major conflict between Russin and the West, but IMO, this won't really matter in the greater scheme of things. That greater scheme being the world war between theocratic Islam and everybody else that is already underway.

#28, re: "I'm replying to myself, but here is the latest news items I heard on the radio:
1. one of the people that committed the Paris terror attacks was planning and discussing stuff - in Hungary. Apparently he was among the refugees trying to cross into Hungary in the summer and he was allegedly a leader in exhorting fellow refugee applicants not to register with fingerprints. He was met by Belgian citizens here. This was reported in the critical media, but it scores a big point for our Prime Minister. He can now say to the whole world, see, I was right. And literally, he was right in this respect, though the meaning of how his party uses this whole issue does not change substantially. The true answer would be what I heard from a security and intelligence expert later on on a separate show yesterday: to reinforce EU intel and screening operations, and to share intel far better than they do now. I suspect a mass color-blind policy of letting in refugees would not work, but that is the official policy here. This expert - sounded pretty unbiased to me - said that presently the anti-terror operations of Eastern Europe share a lot of info with their Western colleagues, like Germany and Britain, but this is not a two-sided relationship, the Westerners share very little actual and useful information. Obviously this has to change very fundamentally if they want the system to work.
There is a mistrust concerning poorer and eastern countries, particularly here and in Bulgaria, about safeguarding useful current information from the Russian federation, Turkey and possibly even Arab countries with dubious allegiances. Also, he said security screening was developed in the US to an entirely different level than before 911, and the EU, despite the London and the Madrid terror attacks failed to do this."

I can't help but take a major reality check on this whole issue of Islamic terrorism against the West and the migration of many millions of Muslims to other countries all over the world that is now occurring. Any response to either except total passive rejection is going to make profound, long-lasting changes in the cultures of the Western nations involved. By "passive rejection", I mean responding to terrorism by catching and killing as many terrorists as possible who are trying to enter the country or have already gotten in and tried to wage guerrilla warfare, but NOT invading the countries they've come from or passed through, and by simply turning away EVERYONE from Islamic countries who seeks asylum. The Iraq invasion and the eventual rise of DAESH proves my first point, and history shows quite clearly that giving assylun to large groups of immigrants who don't want to assimilate but want to form their own permanent cultural enclaves creates internal conflict that can last for centuries.

2. I heard that they traced a cache of weapons that were stored in Hungary which actually ended with Daesh. I don't know more details about this though, but I prefer to look at media outlets here which relies on fair and unbiased reporting (government media does not) and the occasionally correct themselves about factual problems or any misrepresentation. One Hungarian journalist, however, was sued today for lying to the authorities because he pretended to be a refugee from Kyrgyzstan and mixed in with the crowd to do his reporting, and he divulged his true identity only at the end. This is not nice, it is downright hostile on the part of the government authorities, because Hungarian media law makes a specific exception to journalists in this case. If they could only see certain things they think the public should learn about if they disguise their identity, they should be able to do that as long as they later uncover themselves after reporting their stuff. Which I read back then and thought it was excellent and daring."

IMO, it's not that important to either the present population of Hungary or to the world at large for news about the exact details of what's going on there to get covered by the world press. The problems there are obviously going to be eventually solved by bullets, not ballots, and until the actual fighting starts, it's actually not to the interest of any of the political factions involved to have complete press transparency.
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30PostSubject: Re: The meaning of the refugee crisis   Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:32 pm

RR#29 : "IMO, it's not that important to either the present population of Hungary or to the world at large for news about the exact details of what's going on there to get covered by the world press. The problems there are obviously going to be eventually solved by bullets, not ballots, and until the actual fighting starts, it's actually not to the interest of any of the political factions involved to have complete press transparency."

Several news about a geographical and Human link between the recent french terrorist attack and Hungaria have appeared since a week. I don't know what to think of these news as these are displayed in mass media although these are news reffering to facts.

What i would like to emphazise once again is that what i found the most unacceptable in Hungary is not the psychological difficulties, or the religious or the fascist climate :

what i would accuse " VickTgold Goldban " of is his responsability in Hungarians quantitative and qualitative HUNGER PERIOD

and it doesn't surprise me that the heavy Lucitherian spirit in the region find itself in the center of war, poverty, psychosis, fascism all this between all conflicts from the old powerfull theocratic mechanics

i disagree with RR that bullets are good answers to this situation but my best guess is that a lot of our International security, defense and lovely and FUNNY Hum forces in general will be key elements in pacifying and relieving this region

Let's trust our International and Intergalactic genius :-D !

For exemple are you aware of the most incredible, powerfull and effective Hum weapon ever invented on this planet ?
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31PostSubject: Re: The meaning of the refugee crisis   Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:45 pm

The Double Gatling Super Soaker Monster XL ?!



This is of course the heavy duty model but simpler and more affordable ones are also available :

http://www.isoaker.com/Armoury/Analysis/2000/super_soaker_monsterXL.php
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32PostSubject: Re: The meaning of the refugee crisis   Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:56 pm

RR i forgive you for having very temporarely forgetten Godesses'/God's first command : U ne tueras pas

Is it ( independantly from self and group defense) actually non linearly realistic in ur humble feeling ?
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33PostSubject: Re: The meaning of the refugee crisis   Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:28 pm

reality builder wrote:
RR i forgive you for having very temporarely forgetten Godesses'/God's first command : U ne tueras pas

Is it ( independantly from self and group defense) actually non linearly realistic in ur humble feeling ?

I'm assuming your First Commandment is "Do no harm". but IMO this applies to personal development, not to earthly politics. Truly advanced civilizations have neither crime nor war because everybody practices that Commandment, but Earth is not there yet.
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34PostSubject: Re: The meaning of the refugee crisis   Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:56 pm

Realityrebel wrote:
reality builder wrote:
RR i forgive you for having very temporarely forgetten Godesses'/God's first command : U ne tueras pas

Is it ( independantly from self and group defense) actually non linearly realistic in ur humble feeling ?

I'm assuming your First Commandment is "Do no harm". but IMO this applies to personal development, not to earthly politics. Truly advanced civilizations have neither crime nor war because everybody practices that Commandment, but Earth is not there yet.

According to the Torah it means "Do no kill" wich apply or not to politics depending on rational and sensible circumstances.

Yet i agree with you that for Spiritual Revolutionaries it also means " Do no Harm" so Godesses/Gods forgive me as i bypass it by encouraging Super Soaker skirmishes as we approach winter for cold showers do somewhat harm... yet it seems to be a lesser evil as it should also be usefull and positive by generating self questioning and awakening for zombified, aslept and mind controlled Hums at a supraluminic spiritual speed....
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35PostSubject: Re: The meaning of the refugee crisis   Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:06 pm

Important correction: the claim that a main organizer of the Paris attacks was transiting in Hungary as a refugee seems not to be substantiated. Neither was it refuted. It was made the Minister leading the Prime Ministry (an odd title), a character every bit as powerful as the PM, said to be a second "catcher". Cleverly crafted, for this piece of "news" justifies paranoia, but the catch is that no one can deny this claim except based on shared intelligence. People can only speculate. And at least one security expert says that it would cast an odd light upon Hungary as an EU state with security apparatus if indeed this guy was activizing Syrian refugees over here last summer in the center of the capital as a transit station and no one suspected that he was a aggressive fanatic.

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36PostSubject: Re: The meaning of the refugee crisis   Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:18 pm

regmelocco wrote:
Important correction: the claim that a main organizer of the Paris attacks was transiting in Hungary as a refugee seems not to be substantiated. Neither was it refuted. It was made the Minister leading the Prime Ministry (an odd title), a character every bit as powerful as the PM, said to be a second "catcher". Cleverly crafted, for this piece of "news" justifies paranoia, but the catch is that no one can deny this claim except based on shared intelligence. People can only speculate. And at least one security expert says that it would cast an odd light upon Hungary as an EU state with security apparatus if indeed this guy was activizing Syrian refugees over here last summer in the center of the capital as a transit station and no one suspected that he was a aggressive fanatic.



Even stable governments like the USA or Russia seem to have a multi-level intelligence service that includes super-secret units that gather or transmit information in foreign countries, and in some cases even smuggle people across borders (either in or out) or commit acts than can be labeled as terrorism without either the public or the vast majority of government officials knowing about it. So in an unstable country like Hungary seems to be right now, I expect massive amounts of this is going on.
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