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 Israel: the Jews Greatest Blunder?

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1PostSubject: Israel: the Jews Greatest Blunder?   Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:18 pm

I'm beginning to think that the creation of the State of Israel
as a Jewish homeland in 1948 was perhaps the greatest mistake the
Jews as a nation or ethnic group have made yet in their long and
tumultuous history. Or if not, then it was probably the Israeli
government's decision a few decades later to build hundreds of
nuclear bombs and start talking about "the Sampson option",
meaning, "If it looks like Israel is going to lose a war and be
conquored, we will start nuking everybody in sight, just for the
hell of it."

What would the Middle East be like today if the Western Allies
had decided after WW2 to create a "State of Palestine" instead
of a "State of Israel"? My best guess is that the present major
conflict between the "Islamic World" and "Western Civilization"
would never have happened, and that everybody, everywhere on
Earth, would feel safer than they do right now.

My assumption is that if Israel had never been created, almost
all of the world's Jews would be living in "Western" countries
in safety and prospetity, feeling free to practice their religion
and keep their ethnic identity. There would also be dozens of
Islamic nations all the way from Morocco to Pakistan, offering
Muslims a wide variety of political and economic systems to live
under. Some of these nations would be more successful than others,
and they would compete among themselves rather than uniting against
the West as a common enemy.

These are opinions I've formed gradually over the years as
I've watched the present extremely frightening world political
situation develop, and I'd like to see what the rest of you
think of them.
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2PostSubject: Re: Israel: the Jews Greatest Blunder?   Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:57 pm

My besh opinion abou zhis is zha as hidding tyrants
started V V 2 zhey were also, at the time, obwiously able 2
influence and drive Jews in some of their pos V V 2 planning

Akually i sense wonderfull dynamics in all Hum
domains & worked by people of varying origins and
horizons going on zhere bu zhis & whak your curren opinion
appear 2 be mainly adusking "food for thinking" & "motivaschons for doing"

A good idea 2 do jus zha is 2 jus consider zha zhe Holy Land
we may call "Izsreal" is our whole planeglobe iks bozh unconquerable
by nature and an hyper powerfull creakiwe generakor : zha's very reashuring

as for skirmishes going on politically : everyone knows politics naturally scare
the hell out of us when they compete especially in a peacefull and loving world !
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3PostSubject: Re: Israel: the Jews Greatest Blunder?   Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:25 am

I tend to agree basically, though I wonder if it could have been avoided. At the time Israel was created, only a person with an extreme sensibility to karmic things could have avoided this mistake. Many Israelis I had as friends either chose to live abroad or were against this idea of a Zionist homeland.
The karmic sensibility says that a collective trauma like the Holocaust will rebound.
Some Israelis have extreme prejudices about all Arabs - they will say things like "these people only understand a show of force" and stuff like that. The sad thing is that by now in the age of Islamic fundamentalism this became true even though it is a gradual process. You could say that there is a sibling rivalry energy between forceful defendants of the idea of a Jewish homeland and local radical Arabs, though there are many wiser people in both groups who would like to live in peace - those are usually people who care less about fanatical ideas of religion and ethnicity.
As a person with family and friendly connections to Jewish people, I could say that it is a far simpler issue in Eastern Europe - Jews are a very good part of our local history and they have been only on one side of a victim-perpetrator cycle. But it is far more complex in Israel and all I can say is that I think no one can own the land, though both groups have a try and also Christians "defend" the idea of a Holy Land.
At the same time I know would be mechanically classified by enemies of Jews with the Jewish group. Also, even Orthodox Jews are very tolerant about accepting goyim (or more exactly, non-Jews) even in their holiest gatherings, as long as we put on a cap and observe their customs, plus they are far more tolerant about the practice of things that actually challenge orthodoxy. I had discussions with Orthodox Jews on Shabbath about Indian astrology and Hindu meditation. I wonder what a fundamentalist Christian or Moslem would do if a non-believer would be present at all.
As a society, Israel is facing very difficult choices. I have a very spiritual friend who traveled there recently and was absolutely stricken with how beautiful everything was maintained, houses, surroundings, agriculture, historical monuments etc. When they were crossing into Syrian or Jordanian territory, they were accused and searched and made to pay right away (just because they came through Israel with Israeli visas, they are not Jewish) and they could see the agricultural lands neglected, the buildings and monuments not kept up to standards and so on.
Would present-day Israelis best abandon everything two or three generations fought for successfully? Including Modern Hebrew?
On the other hand, how can you live in peace when armed guards are present at playgrounds and people run for shelters every hour of the day and night?
The narratives simply do not match, neither do the cultures. I know about the racism and the ethnic faults perpetrated by Israeli armed forces, and I worked alongside with Palestinian activists in the US. However, hearing the Israeli narratives of different people affected me over the years... In their narrative, Arabs always exaggerate, distort facts and present their side of things, plus they have strict power structures similar to mafias and tribal chiefs. But I also know about the horrible lack of justice local non-Jewish people have to suffer. During the last two Gaza wars, the world was horrified at the cruelty of Israel, e.g. bombing places where children were staying or hospitals - at the same time, it is also horrific to leave or place children and the sick and wounded right on top of military installations.

The British Empire chose to leave this mess to the modern world when they were just transferring the seat of the Western power hub to the US.

One thinks of Edward T. Hall and his study of cultural prejudices - and maximized. Hall's famous book The Silent Language (1965 Review) pointed out how many things we take as "human nature" are learned and how they were vastly different in different cultures.
Quote from the book review: "If you’re a born and bred American and you’ve lived in any non-Anglophone country, you may have realized after a time that the local people you met didn’t just speak a different language—they were really weird. They acted in all sorts of ways that struck you as irrational, frustrating, and eventually annoying. They stood too close to you, or too far away. Their voices were too loud, or too soft. They were vague about such basics as time, distance, and probabilities. And after months of this disorienting behavior all around you, you may have wondered whether you were going mad. In a sense, you were. You were suffering from what has come to be called “culture shock”—a sometimes-traumatic condition that results from the removal of familiar cultural cues. In its worst manifestations, culture shock can make you feel as though you’ve been detached from reality.
This concept was brought home to Americans by returning Peace Corps volunteers in the 1960s and 1970s. Because volunteers had been immersed by design in local cultures, they brought culture shock to light for many Americans. Fortunately, even before the first Peace Corps volunteers were posted overseas, a cultural anthropologist named Edward T. Hall had studied the roots of culture shock in great detail and published his findings in a compelling book, The Silent Language. Those of us who served in the early years of the Peace Corps benefited directly from Hall’s insight. In my training program in 1965, The Silent Language was required reading."
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4PostSubject: Re: Israel: the Jews Greatest Blunder?   Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:23 pm

reg, #3, re: "I tend to agree basically, though I wonder
if it could have been avoided. At the time Israel was created,
only a person with an extreme sensibility to karmic things
could have avoided this mistake. Many Israelis I had as friends
either chose to live abroad or were against this idea of a
Zionist homeland."

I was six years old in 1948 and have clear memories that
practically all the adults around me at the time were complete
supporters of the State of Israel, but had an understanding of
what was going on there that's extremely naive if judged by
today's standards. They belonged to the hard core of the
countercultural and occult communities in the Los Angeles
area and so did the Jews they were personally acquainted with,
and they were also mostly on the extreme left politically.
So they lived in a dream world where Israel would eventually
have an economy and social structure based mostly on
cooperatives and also serve as a host nation for large
numbers of tourists who would come to the "Holy Land"
every year. And this naivity continued through most of the
Fifties, as more and more emphasis was put on rescuing
Jews from Soviet oppression.

re: "The karmic sensibility says that a collective trauma
like the Holocaust will rebound."

A lot of people in the world occult community have always
realized this on the instinctive level, but haven't been
able to deal with it on the practical level. The reality
is that the karmic "ball" has massive weight, and when
it rebounds, it often crushes innocent and guilty alike.

re: "Some Israelis have extreme prejudices about all Arabs.
and they will say things like 'these people only understand
a show of force' and stuff like that. The sad thing is that
by now in the age of Islamic fundamentalism this became
true even though it is a gradual process. You could say that
there is a sibling rivalry energy between forceful defendants
of the idea of a Jewish homeland and local radical Arabs,
though there are many wiser people in both groups who would
like to live in peace - those are usually people who care
less about fanatical ideas of religion and ethnicity."

Until just before the 1967 war, lots of American occultists
used to visit Israel and live in Palestinian neighborhoods
because "it's cheaper and the Arabian food is a lot more
interesting than the Israel version of Kosher food". That
day is long gone, and I suspect it's hard for younger
people anywhere in the Western world to imagine that this
version of Israel ever existed.

re: "As a person with family and friendly connections to
Jewish people, I could say that it is a far simpler issue
in Eastern Europe - Jews are a very good part of our local
history and they have been only on one side of a victim-
perpetrator cycle. But it is far more complex in Israel
and all I can say is that I think no one can own the land,
though both groups have a try and also Christians 'defend'
the idea of a Holy Land. At the same time I know would be
mechanically classified by enemies of Jews with the Jewish
group. Also, even Orthodox Jews are very tolerant about
accepting goyim (or more exactly, non-Jews) even in their
holiest gatherings, as long as we put on a cap and observe
their customs, plus they are far more tolerant about the
practice of things that actually challenge orthodoxy.
I had discussions with Orthodox Jews on Shabbath about
Indian astrology and Hindu meditation. I wonder what a
fundamentalist Christian or Moslem would do if a
non-believer would be present at all."

My personal experiences with American Jews were exactly
the same as you describe happening in Eastern Europe
until about the mid-70's, when the majority of young
Jews started being almost completely assimilated into
the secular culture. Right now, practically all of the
fancy old Synogogues in the SF Bay Area have been sold
to non-Jews and are either Christian churches or homes
to businesses or charitable groups. The surviving
Jewish congregations, both Orthodox and the various
reformed sects, tend to meet in rented storefronts
and the like, as various "minor" Christian sects
have traditionally done. However, this massive
assimilation has gotten so little media attention
that it rarely gets talked about in discussions of
Zionism versus Islamic fundamentalism.

re: "As a society, Israel is facing very difficult
choices. I have a very spiritual friend who traveled
there recently and was absolutely stricken with how
beautiful everything was maintained, houses,
surroundings, agriculture, historical monuments etc.
When they were crossing into Syrian or Jordanian
territory, they were accused and searched and made
to pay right away (just because they came through
Israel with Israeli visas, they are not Jewish)
and they could see the agricultural lands neglected,
the buildings and monuments not kept up to standards
and so on. Would present-day Israelis best abandon
everything two or three generations fought for
successfully? Including Modern Hebrew? On the other
hand, how can you live in peace when armed guards
are present at playgrounds and people run for shelters
every hour of the day and night? The narratives simply
do not match, neither do the cultures. I know about
the racism and the ethnic faults perpetrated by
Israeli armed forces, and I worked alongside with
Palestinian activists in the US. However, hearing
the Israeli narratives of different people affected
me over the years... In their narrative, Arabs always
exaggerate, distort facts and present their side of
things, plus they have strict power structures similar
to mafias and tribal chiefs. But I also know about
the horrible lack of justice local non-Jewish people
have to suffer. During the last two Gaza wars, the
world was horrified at the cruelty of Israel, e.g.
bombing places where children were staying or
hospitals - at the same time, it is also horrific
to leave or place children and the sick and wounded
right on top of military installations."

It looks to me right now that the only way to have
peace in this part of the world is for all non-Jews
to be expelled from Israel, or exterminated if they
refuse to go, and for the Western World to set up
a long-term Cold War with both the Islamic World
and with Israel. This sounds harsh and pessimistic,
but I can't think of any realistic alternatives.
The irony of this is that such a solution will
automatically impoverish both Israel and the
various Islamic nations. The Western World will
be forced to find alternative sources of energy
and oil will no longer be a major source of
wealth in the Middle East. Since none of these
countries has the right kind of climate and
natrual resources in general to sustain a
successful high-tech economy, they will all
sink ever deeper into poverty, while the
equatorial regions of the New World, Africa,
and East Asia become increasingly productive
and wealthy.

re:"The British Empire chose to leave this
mess to the modern world when they were just
transferring the seat of the Western power
hub to the US."

This is why I believe that they should have
created a State of Palestine rathe than a
State of Israel.

re: "One thinks of Edward T. Hall and his study
of cultural prejudices - and maximized. Hall's
famous book The Silent Language (1965 Review)
pointed out how many things we take as 'human
nature' are learned and how they were vastly
different in different cultures. Quote from the
book review: 'If you’re a born and bred American
and you’ve lived in any non-Anglophone country,
you may have realized after a time that the local
people you met didn’t just speak a different
language—they were really weird. They acted in
all sorts of ways that struck you as irrational,
frustrating, and eventually annoying. They stood
too close to you, or too far away. Their voices
were too loud, or too soft. They were vague about
such basics as time, distance, and probabilities.
And after months of this disorienting behavior
all around you, you may have wondered whether you
were going mad. In a sense, you were. You were
suffering from what has come to be called
“culture shock”—a sometimes-traumatic condition
that results from the removal of familiar cultural
cues. In its worst manifestations, culture shock
can make you feel as though you’ve been detached
from reality.' This concept was brought home to
Americans by returning Peace Corps volunteers in
the 1960s and 1970s. Because volunteers had been
immersed by design in local cultures, they brought
culture shock to light for many Americans.
Fortunately, even before the first Peace Corps
volunteers were posted overseas, a cultural
anthropologist named Edward T. Hall had studied
the roots of culture shock in great detail and
published his findings in a compelling book,
'The Silent Language'. Those of us who served
in the early years of the Peace Corps benefited
directly from Hall’s insight. In my training\
program in 1965, 'The Silent Language' was required reading."

I personally was clued into all of this by the following book:

"Future Shock is a book written by the futurist Alvin Toffler in 1970. In the book, Toffler defines the term "future shock" as a certain psychological state of individuals and entire societies. His shortest definition for the term is a personal perception of 'too much change in too short a period of time'.

"Alvin Toffler distinguished three stages in development of society and production: agrarian, industrial and post-industrial.

"The first stage began in the period of the Neolithic Era when people invented agriculture, thereby passing from barbarity to a civilization. The second stage began in England with the Industrial Revolution during which people invented the machine tool and the steam engine. The third stage began in the second half of the 20th century in the West when people invented automatic production, robotics and the computer. The services sector attained great value.

"Toffler proposed one criterion for distinguishing between industrial society and post-industrial society: the share of the population occupied in agriculture versus the share of city labor occupied in the services sector. In a post-industrial society, the share of the people occupied in agriculture does not exceed 15%, and the share of city laborers occupied in the services sector exceeds 50%. Thus, the share of the people occupied with brainwork greatly exceeds the share of the people occupied with physical work in post-industrial society."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Shock
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5PostSubject: Re: Israel: the Jews Greatest Blunder?   Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:08 pm

Yes! I remember having this book by Toffler when I was a young college student. The funny thing is I can't recall a lot of specific things but I read it several times and I kept on being very inspired by it.
I think it was my uncle from New York who called my attention to it.

I find some sociological thinking and history valuable in the case of Palestinians, other Arab nations and the rest of the world, then jump to intuition and karmic assessments at a deeper level. As you pointed out years earlier in a similar thread, the "original refugees" could have easily been absorbed by existing Arab nations but they did not want to do that. The result was the "refugee camps" - dislocated people. Now masses find work in richer Arab nations - but in Saudi Arabia or the Emirates they do not get permanent citizenship. It would be nice if meaningful work was offered but it is probably too late.
News reports with the kind of people I could call "peacemaker Arabs" - merchants for example who live in Israel and have citizenship and think it is very important to be in peace with Jews (maybe not the extreme right of course).
From the Jewish narratives I know that actually many houses, lands and entire settlements were actually bought by Jewish sympathizers for years as they were preparing to found Israel - and sometimes there were forceful dislocations only if the non-Jew refused to sell their property. Today the Pal narrative is oversimplified to "the Jews took our land..." Well, in a lot of cases they paid for the said land and house, and they on their part did not understand why the people who received the money did not start a business somewhere but found themselves in poverty soon again.

I translated some correspondence from the time and a wise commentator that immigrated to Israel recently after its founding (after his family narrowly escaped the Holocaust wandering through several countries). His point was that all the Arab regimes were totally freaked out by the Communist movements among the Arabs far more than the Zionist settlers at the time. Which supports the thought of how different it was before 1967 to visit Israel and actually how communal values were - many Israeli founders were even left-wingers who thought kibbutzim and a sort of Jewish Socialism will flourish. The Hebrew language is a success - people sing, learn, do courting and there are several dialects.
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6PostSubject: Re: Israel: the Jews Greatest Blunder?   Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:51 pm

reg, #5, re:"Yes! I remember having this book by Toffler when I was a
young college student. The funny thing is I can't recall a lot of
specific things but I read it several times and I kept on being very
inspired by it. I think it was my uncle from New York who called my
attention to it."

My actual impression on reading it was: "I've already written about
most of these ideas in articles and letters for the underround press,
but it's a pleasant surprise to see them between hard covers. But I
felt a little sad when I read the passages about how the author felt
sort of embarrassed about sticking his neck out so far, and almost
wished he hadn't written it. And weirdly enough this is just about
all I remember about the book's contents ... because I was already
familiar with most of the material before I read it. And I suspect
you were too...

re: "I find some sociological thinking and history valuable in the
case of Palestinians, other Arab nations and the rest of the world,
then jump to intuition and karmic assessments at a deeper level.
As you pointed out years earlier in a similar thread, the "original
refugees" could have easily been absorbed by existing Arab nations
but they did not want to do that. The result was the "refugee camps"
- dislocated people. Now masses find work in richer Arab nations -
but in Saudi Arabia or the Emirates they do not get permanent
citizenship. It would be nice if meaningful work was offered but it
is probably too late."

And it's important to point out that this mistreatment of Muslim
refugees from Israel/Palestine by the governments all over the Islam
world was part of a deliberate plot to guarantee that the effort to
establish a Jewish homeland would fail. In fact, prior to 1948, there
was no ethnic group in the Islamic World that labeled itself as
"Palestinian".

re: "News reports with the kind of people I could call "peacemaker
Arabs" - merchants for example who live in Israel and have
citizenship and think it is very important to be in peace with Jews
(maybe not the extreme right of course). From the Jewish narratives
I know that actually many houses, lands and entire settlements were
actually bought by Jewish sympathizers for years as they were
preparing to found Israel - and sometimes there were forceful
dislocations only if the non-Jew refused to sell their property.
Today the Pal narrative is oversimplified to 'the Jews took our
land...' Well, in a lot of cases they paid for the said land and
house, and they on their part did not understand why the people
who received the money did not start a business somewhere but
found themselves in poverty soon again."

I know from conversations with American Occultists who lived
in Palestine both before and after WW2 and saw all of this
occur is that the reality was simply that the Jewish majority
didn't WANT Muslims of any kind to have full citizenship in
the Jewish Homeland or to have true economic security there.
The reason Muslims couldn't start businesses is because they
couldn't get the necessary licenses, nor could they get good
jobs at Jewish-owned businesses no matter how well qualified
they were.

re: "I translated some correspondence from the time and a wise
commentator that immigrated to Israel recently after its founding
(after his family narrowly escaped the Holocaust wandering through
several countries). His point was that all the Arab regimes were
totally freaked out by the Communist movements among the Arabs
far more than the Zionist settlers at the time. Which supports
the thought of how different it was before 1967 to visit Israel
and actually how communal values were - many Israeli founders
were even left-wingers who thought kibbutzim and a sort of
Jewish Socialism will flourish. The Hebrew language is a success
- people sing, learn, do courting and there are several dialects."

Yeah, this is evidence to support what I said about this in the
OP, and of course the Cold War of the Fifties and Sixties
is one of the things that changed the basic political ideology
of the maority of Israeli Zionists from something similar
to Soviet-style socialism to something more like fascism. Egypt
and many of the other Muslim nations were heavily influenced by
the USSR on the economic, military, and political levels,
whereas Israel sided with the US/NATO coelition and received
massive investments from multinational caplitalist corporations.
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7PostSubject: Re: Israel: the Jews Greatest Blunder?   Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:33 am

I keep on re-reading your answers because they are very deep and detailed. I value this forum correspondence among the highest good things that happened in my life. I would have been lost with my freedom-loving and spiritual world view if I had not had this feedback for the last years, though these days I feel that I am starting to be able to represent my "agent" status on my own too.

A couple of thoughts:
No, I had not been familiar with a lot of what Toffler articulated before I was first exposed to American counterculture at the age of 21 (and to a lesser extent one year before). But they rang familiar... Soon the book The Turning Point was also out, but Future Shock solidified many of the directions of searching and many people read it at the time though they were not necessarily bookish or intellectuals.

My first milder but definitive psychedelic experiences, Zen Buddhism, Alan Watts's books, alternative psychotherapy, reggae music, etc. all arrived in my world with full force in the summer of 1982 when my uncle invited me to spend the summer in New York City. To be sure, we spent a few nights talking during the year before when he visited Hungary, and found that his changed world view (he had also traveled in many countries by that time) aroused little interest in Hungarians except in my Yogic grandmother and myself... (and to some degree in my sculptor mother), which again shows that the IC inspirations were running on that side of my family. I went through a John Lennon renaissance too and tried many self-therapy practices. I could listen to him talk about Nepal or New York City or trying psychedelic stuff and I could see a further extension of some of my deepest feelings in what he said.

Which brings me back to the OP: I find it is very common to find "post-holocaust" syndromes in today's people of Jewish origin in Eastern Europe (including Polish, Ukrainian etc. people). There is a recurrent theme of inhumanity in some way, either given or received, and the deep inner urge to "survive at any cost." Though people in Israel can be rather aggressive about this, Jewish people here are justifiably threatened by the neo-fascist movements arising in this part of the world. I read about many American Jews who were into psychology or other forms of self-searching and whose parents had escaped from Europe.

There is a lot of racism in today's Israel, and prejudice. I find it hard to understand how someone's religious origins could be a cause for not receiving a business license but there are more examples down the line. I would probably either leave or convert to Judaism if I came from an Israeli Muslim background. But the next point is that people who are Jewish but ethnically non-white are also discriminated against. Allegedly, black Jews and Moroccan Arab Jews were at times subject to medical experiments (like children's overexposure to X-rays at routine examinations) which were later used to gauge safety limits applied to "white" Israelis. Arab-speaking Jews have it hard to this day, receiving low-paying jobs or none, though many escaped from regimes where they had been discriminated for their religion. Which proves that the whole thing is about power and not religion originally. I heard and read so many stories that I find it easy to believe, though it remains to be seen whether the most dramatic stories (such as irradiating kids at medical examinations) are true. Still, if I were there I would pretend to be naive and call their trump card - are they a democracy or are they not? If not, if it is solely one Middle Eastern kingdom against the others why should the West help them at all? If they are, then let's prove it by treating non-Jews and colored Jews as equals. But they can be particularly quarrelsome. I still refuse to think that this would be "some Jewish thing" because many European and American (Canadian etc.) Jews do not have this energy. To believe that it is somehow biologically inherited would be racism. Now some of them are no doubt racist but I refuse to acknowledge their ideological presupposition - religion is religion and there is nothing inherited about it biologically.

However, there are a couple of "inheritance" points one picks up with the language and the family: Eastern Europe and its traumatic history comes to mind as one such point. So many people arrived from Russia, former Soviet territories and Romania lately - plus many young second-generation Israelis interested in hippy lifestyle, house music or meditation or any one of the several hundred non-Orthodox explorations chose to stay abroad long-term that the population changed. Russian is the second language of business after Ivrit. And the fact is, some of the worst horrors of modern history - from Auschwitz to Chernobyl, the Holodomor, Stalin's gulags and the Siege of Budapest - happened in Eastern Europe...

Already in 1996, an Israeli guy I was camping with - a very bright guy who was camping around the States smoking some weed - revealed that he found the recent masses of Eastern Europeans brash, racist, paranoid and so on so he was less and less comfortable with the idea of returning home. And he said the worst were "the Russians" by which Sephardim meant all Russian-speaking emigrants.

The single turning point where it seemed to concentrate was consciousness change by drugs or meditation. Those who did it were often even more interesting and progressive than the culture that spawned their consciousness-altering matrix but those who did not seemed to be full of the above-described brash ethnicism and loud and brutal prejudices, as well as family neuroses.

Now out of the two bad systems - multi-capitalism and Soviet weirdness - the former one was famously tolerant of the existence of this need and practice of altering your consciousness and the second one was absolutely intolerant of it. It is odd. Some things were truly good about the side-effects of the Soviet model - e.g. people (those who were still alive after the first blind rage purges) could easily have roof and bread then speculate about life, plus there was a reassuring sense of order in everyday life. I guess the Arafat folks did not get much of this though...
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8PostSubject: Re: Israel: the Jews Greatest Blunder?   Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:38 pm

reg, #7, re: "I keep on re-reading your answers because they are very deep and detailed. I value this forum correspondence among the highest good things that happened in my life. I would have been lost with my freedom-loving and spiritual world view if I had not had this feedback for the last years, though these days I feel that I am starting to be able to represent my 'agent' status on my own too."

I also consider your forum exchanges with me as "very deep and detailed", and I figure that I'm just as dependent on your feedback as you are on mine.

re: A couple of thoughts: No, I had not been familiar with a lot of what Toffler articulated before I was first exposed to American counterculture at the age of 21 (and to a lesser extent one year before). But they rang familiar... Soon the book The Turning Point was also out, but Future Shock solidified many of the directions of searching and many people read it at the time though they were not necessarily bookish or intellectuals. My first milder but definitive psychedelic experiences, Zen Buddhism, Alan Watts's books, alternative psychotherapy, reggae music, etc. all arrived in my world with full force in the summer of 1982 when my uncle invited me to spend the summer in New York City. To be sure, we spent a few nights talking during the year before when he visited Hungary, and found that his changed world view (he had also traveled in many countries by that time) aroused little interest in Hungarians except in my Yogic grandmother and myself... (and to some degree in my sculptor mother), which again shows that the IC inspirations were running on that side of my family. I went through a John Lennon renaissance too and tried many self-therapy practices. I could listen to him talk about Nepal or New York City or trying psychedelic stuff and I could see a further extension of some of my deepest feelings in what he said."

I get a strong impression that your Spirit Guides have actually been guiding you in conscious-expanding directions all your life, because you swwm to have a "born agent's" talent for cherry-picking out the useful stuff in your life exeriences including not intellectual and artistic inputm but daily interactions with other people as well.

re: "Which brings me back to the OP: I find it is very common to find 'post-holocaust' syndromes in today's people of Jewish origin in Eastern Europe (including Polish, Ukrainian etc. people). There is a recurrent theme of inhumanity in some way, either given or received, and the deep inner urge to 'survive at any cost.' Though people in Israel can be rather aggressive about this, Jewish people here are justifiably threatened by the neo-fascist movements arising in this part of the world. I read about many American Jews who were into psychology or other forms of self-searching and whose parents had escaped from Europe."

I see strong parallels between the experiences you describe Jews as now having in Eastern Europe and the experiences African Americans are now having. I suspect that there is anti-Semitism embedded so deeply into the secular cultures of Hungary, the Ukraine, etc. that non-Jews sometimes act some it out on a subconscious level and Jews take defensive action against it on the same level. And I am absolutely certain that this is occurring in the USA today between Whites and Blacks, because I can directly perceive it with my psychic senses.

re: "There is a lot of racism in today's Israel, and prejudice. I find it hard to understand how someone's religious origins could be a cause for not receiving a business license but there are more examples down the line. I would probably either leave or convert to Judaism if I came from an Israeli Muslim background. But the next point is that people who are Jewish but ethnically non-white are also discriminated against. Allegedly, black Jews and Moroccan Arab Jews were at times subject to medical experiments (like children's overexposure to X-rays at routine examinations) which were later used to gauge safety limits applied to 'white' Israelis. Arab-speaking Jews have it hard to this day, receiving low-paying jobs or none, though many escaped from regimes where they had been discriminated for their religion. Which proves that the whole thing is about power and not religion originally. I heard and read so many stories that I find it easy to believe, though it remains to be seen whether the most dramatic stories (such as irradiating kids at medical examinations) are true. Still, if I were there I would pretend to be naive and call their trump card - are they a democracy or are they not? If not, if it is solely one Middle Eastern kingdom against the others why should the West help them at all? If they are, then let's prove it by treating non-Jews and colored Jews as equals. But they can be particularly quarrelsome. I still refuse to think that this would be 'some Jewish thing' because many European and American (Canadian etc.) Jews do not have this energy. To believe that it is somehow biologically inherited would be racism. Now some of them are no doubt racist but I refuse to acknowledge their ideological presupposition - religion is religion and there is nothing inherited about it biologically."

I've been exposed to all this information for a long, long time and have always been surprised that the vast majority of Americans on both sides of the Israeli issue have been a lot more ignorant of it than they should have been at any given point in time. For that matter, a lot of them are still almost completely unaware of "what's really going" on, as I've found when I've posted my reality check on the subject on many different Web discussion forums. You've definitely participated in some of these discussions.

re: "However, there are a couple of 'inheritance' points one picks up with the language and the family: Eastern Europe and its traumatic history comes to mind as one such point. So many people arrived from Russia, former Soviet territories and Romania lately - plus many young second-generation Israelis interested in hippy lifestyle, house music or meditation or any one of the several hundred non-Orthodox explorations chose to stay abroad long-term that the population changed. Russian is the second language of business after Ivrit. And the fact is, some of the worst horrors of modern history - from Auschwitz to Chernobyl, the Holodomor, Stalin's gulags and the Siege of Budapest - happened in Eastern Europe..."

It's also important to realize that the mainstream Jewish secular culture that got exported to Western Europe after the end of the Middle Ages and spread to the New World during the 19th century had its origin in the areas of Eastern Europe you mentioned, among Jews who lived in some of the most repressive ghettos in history. So the horrors and their impact on the "Jewish collective unconscious" go way, way back into the history of Judaism as it exists today.

re: "Already in 1996, an Israeli guy I was camping with - a very bright guy who was camping around the States smoking some weed - revealed that he found the recent masses of Eastern Europeans brash, racist, paranoid and so on so he was less and less comfortable with the idea of returning home. And he said the worst were 'the Russians' by which Sephardim meant all Russian-speaking emigrants. The single turning point where it seemed to concentrate was consciousness change by drugs or meditation. Those who did it were often even more interesting and progressive than the culture that spawned their consciousness-altering matrix but those who did not seemed to be full of the above-described brash ethnicism and loud and brutal prejudices, as well as family neuroses. Now out of the two bad systems - multi-capitalism and Soviet weirdness - the former one was famously tolerant of the existence of this need and practice of altering your consciousness and the second one was absolutely intolerant of it. It is odd. Some things were truly good about the side-effects of the Soviet model - e.g. people (those who were still alive after the first blind rage purges) could easily have roof and bread then speculate about life, plus there was a reassuring sense of order in everyday life. I guess the Arafat folks did not get much of this though..."

Most modern Americans don't realize this, but even the "multi-capitalism" that existed in Germany under Hitler was extremely tolerant of many different forms of consciousness expansion. And it also looks to me like the prejudices that Soviet-style Communism had against it succeeded reasonably well in Russia and Eastern Europe where it had never been deeply embedded into the culture, but broke down when this same politico-economic system was imposed on the Chinese. The use of consciousness altering substances was too deeply engrained into the traditional Chinese medical system, and various forms of yogic practices were embedded in the Taoist and Buddhist roots of the Chinese culture itself. Chairman Mao railed against both of these, but he was obviously unsuccessful, because they are highly visible in China today even though the basic "Red Chinese" politico-economic system remains in place.
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