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 Turkey questions

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regmelocco



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1PostSubject: Turkey questions   Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:28 am

Dear friends,

I have not been writing as much due to busy family programs and job-searching as usual in the summer.
I have more questions than answers in this OP, I wonder what everyone thinks of the failed coup d'état in Turkey. Somehow the world's eyes are averted with the exception of German language papers. I understand that the US elections are important but perhaps in retrospect, historians will note that the summer of 2016 had more important events worldwide than the picking of Trump's vice president...
Turkey is an almost 80-million nation and we have already heard controversial stories about Mr. Erdogan's rule - he is no champion of democracy, people allege that his government trades with the Daesh, and he continues the repression of Kurds (which could be a coin with two sides... PKP being at least as terrorist as the IRA used to be, with some leaders spouting Stalinist nonsense).

Turkey is the key to Europe's refugee problem - people say there is an estimated number of two to three million refugees from Syria and Iraq in Turkey (who do not have citizenship and mostly work on the black market). A NATO member with an important US airbase, Turkey could be the savior of the EU or it could be its undoing.

To briefly recap events: a small military faction started a coup d'état and seized some Army and government headquarters but failed to shoot down Mr. Erdogan's plane - which gives rise to speculations whether those involved really wanted a change of power. The coup failed in a few hours, with hundreds of people dead, military members lynched by the mob answering Erdogan's Facebook call.

Western MSM journalists agree that the failed coup benefited Mr. Erdogan's power faction, and governments are calling upon Mr. Erdogan to have an easy hand in his answer to the coup - despite that, tens of thousands are arrested, thousands of judges are suspended among other crackdown orders and Mr. Erdogan is contemplating the introduction of the death penalty.

A recent friend who knows Turkey inside out said that the whole thing was the work of Kemalists (Kemal Atatürk is the founder of the modern Turkish secular state, who introduced Latin script, European style clothing and a strict separation of Church and State). While Mr. ERdogan prefers more Islam. He does sit under the obligatory portrait of Kemal, though.

Recently Turkey clashed with Russia - they shot down a fighter on its way to Syria. President Erdogan failed to apologize to Mr. Putin beyond mere formalities at the time, thus Russian-Turkish relations were quite frosty for a few months, and a major gas pipeline was cancelled. Erdogan changed his mind last week though, and gave Putin the in merito apology the Russians had expected... A few more terrorist attacks happened in the meantime, with dozens killed in major cities - then a coup is supposed to start. They can't find the President which is quite odd... Then two putschist fighter planes escort Mr. Erdogan's plane but do not shoot. Erdogan arrives in Istambul and calls upon his supporters nationwide to march on the street, strike down the military - and bloody mob scenes follow in major Turkish cities. No doubt many of those sacrificed were innocent, while it turns out from interviews that simple soldiers who took part in some activities were not really aware that someone was trying to topple their all-powerful president.

My questions involve two levels: what the gain in power of Erdogan means at the geopolitical level, and what sort of power he is at the deeper level which we often discuss here with War in Heaven in the background.

My guess at answering the second question is that Erdogan wants to rule a theocratic state but not as formally theocratic as Daesh for example. He knows that due to geopolitics, NATO membership and it sheer size, Turkey is far more important in shaping the future of Europe and the whole Middle East than most average Western people think - though no doubt Germans are more sensitive to this issue, having a Turkish minority ranging in the millions.
His brand of Theocracy is still that - my friends who have been there recently have recounted year by year how more and more Islam is on TV, how everyday habits of people are changed by state order.

My guess at the geopolitical level is that a counterweight is being developed and paradoxically this may be helpful to people like the small Eastern European nations I frequently write about. A strong Turkey may by itself act like a plug that stops the total dissolution of civilization some of these borderline countries are facing. I may be wrong though. Our Mr. Orbán certainly admires Erdogan, albeit for the wrong reasons, though he himself is more on Putin's payroll. Mr Erdogan alleges that the coup was the work of the US or at least it happened at the behest or support of the US. Which I find very unlikely. The only thing that he can so far point at is that the rival leader of Turkish Islam, Mr. Gülen resides in the US (God knows how many Hungarian Nazis live in the US and Canada but that still does not make the US a Nazi state...)

As far as bias is concerned, I am writing about this far more freely than on the rise of the dark side of Russia. I generally love Turkish people, their music, their food and their culture, and I must point out that while Turkey's past has horrific incidents - the genocide of Armenians in 1915 which Hitler modelled, being one of the chief national demons that many Turkish people refuse to face - it is odd how well Turkish people actually managed to blend in Western Europe, defying all the stereotypes of the modern anti-Islamic front. While petty crime is allegedly greater in the Turkish parts of Germany, I don't know about serious terrorist attacks targeting civilians or even violent riots - which is a sheer wonder, given the fact that over two million Turks live in Germany (and some put their number at closer to four). Right-wing terror groups of Germany have attacked local residents of Turkish background but no backlash. From what I hear, being Turkish in Western Europe does not automatically bring in stereotypes it could - like being Russian and the Mafia.

France has had far worse record with the integration of people from its former colonies.

It is possible though that the more liberal, urban, Western people of Turkey (including some Kurds) have been steadily leaving for Germany and that there is a serious difference in taste between Germanized Turks and people who remained.

Anatolya (the main landmass of Turkey) is also incidentally home to many of the Earth's oldest archeological sites, some of which show relics of  pretty peaceful civilizations lasting for a long time, with some of them being matriarchal according to modern Western archeologists.
(Check out Catal Hüyük and Göbekli Tepe if you are interested.)

While most educated people in the West know by now that Iranian Theocratic power is Shi'ite, while Saudi Arabia is Sunni (and these two are deadly rivals), Mr. Assad is a member of an Alawite (non-Sunni) majority - there are no such buzzwords connected to Turkish Islam these days. Nationalism does exist at a much higher level than other places with Islamic culture from what I hear - left and right are both nationalists in Turkey, with Kurds and the Armenian question (whether it was a genicude or simply war victims) being a blind spot even among the most liberal and international types...
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2PostSubject: Re: Turkey questions   Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:18 am

reg, the OP, Turkey questions

re: "I have more questions than answers in this OP, I wonder what everyone thinks of the faild coup d'état in Turkey. Somehow the world's eyes are averted with the exception of German language papers. I understand that the US elections are important but perhaps in retrospect, historians will note that the summer of 2016 had more important events worldwide than the picking of Trump's vice president..."

The political situation in Turkey has been getting reasonable coverage on CNN and MSNBC from the beginning of the so-called coup attempt right down to the present, but several key elements mentioned in your message have received little or no attention there. The fact that "coupist" aircraft escorted Erdogan's plane to safety rather then shooting it down is the most important. This by itself is very strong evidence the coup attempt was bogus. And IMO, the heavy news coverage of the fine details of the Republican Convention is justified, because it seems to show that the GOP is probably self-destructing so badly that Trump won't beat Hillary in November, which is going to be the most important event of 2016 on the historical scale unless a really major war breaks out between now and then.

re: "To briefly recap events: a small military faction started a coup d'état and seized some Army and government headquarters but failed to shoot down Mr. Erdogan's plane - which gives rise to speculations whether those involved really wanted a change of power. The coup failed in a few hours, with hundreds of people dead, military members lynched by the mob answering Erdogan's Facebook call. Western MSM journalists agree that the failed coup benefited Mr. Erdogan's power faction, and governments are calling upon Mr. Erdogan to have an easy hand in his answer to the coup - despite that, tens of thousands are arrested, thousands of judges are suspended amng others and Mr. Erdogan is contemplating the introduction of the death penalty. A recent friend who knows Turkey inside out said that the whole thing was the work of Kemalists - Kemal Atatürk is the founder of the modern Turkish secular state, who introduced Latin script, European style clothing and a strict separation of Church and State... Recently Turkey clashed with Russia - they shot down a fighter on its way to Syria. President Erdogan failed to apologize to Mr. Putin beyond mere formalities at the time, thus Russian-Turkish relations were quite frosty for a few months, and a major gas pipeline was cancelled. Erdogan changed his mind last week though, and gave Putin the in merito apology the Russians had expected... A few more terrorist attacks happened in the meantime, with dozens killed in major cities - then a coup is supposed to start. They can't find the President which is quite odd... Then two putschist fighter planes escort Mr. Erdogan's plane but do not shoot. Erdogan arrives in istambul and calls upon his supporters nationwide to march on the street, strike down the military - and bloody mob scenes follow in major Turkish cities. No doubt many of those sacrificed were innocent, while it turns out from interviews that simple soldiers who took part in some activities were not really aware that someone was trying to topple the all-powerful president."

There's been a lot of news coverage here of Erdogan's attempt to get Fethullah Gulen extradited from the USA, which you didn't mention at all. And the extreme right-wing here is now saying that Gulen is indeed responsble and has been working quietly to get Erdogan ousted for a long time. Is Gulen a Kemalist? And is this also true of the people who have been arrested so far? However, even if this is indeed the case, they still could have been set up by people working for Erdogan, with the group staging the coup attempt heavily infiltrated with loyalists ... the fighter pilots mentioned above being among them.

re: "My questions involve two levels: what the gain in power of Erdogan means at the geopolitical level, and what sort of power he is at the deeper level which we often discuss here with War in Heaven in the background. My guess at answering the second question is that Erdogan wants to rule a theocratic state but not as formally theocratic as Daesh for example. He knows that due to geopolitics, NATO membership and it sheer size, Turkey is far more important in shaping the future of Europe and the whole Middle East than most average Western people think - though no doubt Germans are more sensitive to this issue, having a Turkish minority ranging in the millions. His brand of Theocracy is still that - my friends who have been there recently have recounted year by year how more and more Islam is on TV, how everyday habits of people are changed by state order."

IMO what's most important about understanding how theocracy works at the present time on the practical level is that, as RB has pointed out, two additional stages of theocratic mind-control have been added to the five mentioned in WiH: 6ST which is an updated version of 4ST and 7ST which updates 5ST. Both of these employ astropsionic technology that the theocrats didn't have access to prior to 1999, and though it's less powerful than the Stargate technology now being used by the IC, it's more efficient than the methods described in WiH. If Erdogan is using 6ST and 7ST methods, neither his personal religious beliefs nor his political ideology is very important: he's working through astral theocrats capable of doing direct AT mind control ... who are undoubtedly controlling him as well.

re: "My guess at the geopolitical level is that a counterweight is being developed and paradoxically this may be helpful to people like the small Eastern European nations I frequently write about. A strong Turkey may by itself act like a plug that stops the total dissolution of civilization some of these borderline countries are facing. I may be wrong though. Our Mr. Orbán certainly admires Erdogan, albeit for the wrong reasons, though he himself is more on Putin's payroll."

According to my Guides, Erdogan's regime is actually less stable now than it was before the phony coup attempt, so the "plug" may fly out of the container at almost any time.

re: "As far as bias is concerned, I am writing about this far more freely than on the rise of the dark side of Russia, for example. I generally love Turkish people, their music, their food and their culture, and I must point out that while Turkey's past has horrific incidents - the genocide of Armenians in 1915 which Hitler modelled being one of the chief national demons that many Turkish people refuse to face - it is odd how Turkish people actually managed to blend in Western Europe, defying the stereotypes of the modern anti-Islamic front. While petty crime is allegedly greater in the Turkish parts of Germany, I don't know about serious terrorist attacks targeting civilians or even riots - which is a sheer wonder given the fact that over two million Turks live in Germany (and some put their number at closer to four). Right-wing terror groups of Germany have attacked local residents of Turkish background but no backlash."

IMO, it's important to realize that the Ottoman Empire became steadily more Westernized and secularized throughout its existence, and that what Ataturk did wasn't that big a break with the status quo. Notice for example, that when Thomas Jefferson wrote about Islam in the late 1700's, he called it "the Turkish Church", completely ignoring the fact that the majority of Muslims have always been Arabian in language and culture, with Turkey and Iran being looked down upon by the clerics who actually ran Islam from Mecca and Medina. This is why translation of the Quran into other languages was discouraged and every male Musim was encouraged to make the Haj at least once during his lifetime. As I see it, this is the real origin of the recent spread of extreme Islamic fundamentalism since the break up of the Ottoman empire, and it also explains why Turks and Iranians have been able to assimilate into Western cultures throughout the modern era than have Muslims who native language is Arabic.

re: "France has had far worse record with the integration of people from its former colonies with a Muslim culture."

This ties in with what I just said, because most of the Muslims who have immigrated to France have been Arabs in language and culture.

re: "It is possible though that the more liberal, urban, Western parts of Turkey (including Kurds) already left for Germany and that there is a serious difference in taste between Germanized Turks and people who remained."

I hadn't thought of this, but it seems likely now that you point it out.

re: "Anatolya (the main landmass of Turkey) is also incidentally home to many of the Earth's oldest archeological sites, some of which show relics of pretty peaceful civilizations lasting for a long time, with some of them being matriarchal according to modern Western archeologists. (Check out Catal Hüyük and Göbekli Tepe if you are interested.)"

Theories are also now beginning to circulate that Anatolya may have been the original home of the so-called Aryans who spoke the ancestrial Indo-European langauge, rather than the lower Danube valley as modern linguists had previously concluded. This means that PEI speakers may have migrated all the way to India as early as 3000 BC and integrated into the Indus Valley Civilization peacefully, gradually replacing an existing proto-Tamil with proto-Sanskrit. And these same migrations may have also had a strong influence on the ancient cultures in Egypt and the whole Middle East, including the culture that eventually called itself the Hebrews. (Theere are very old Hittite texts that seem to give textual evidence of this.)

re: "While most educated people in the West know by now that Iranian Theocratic power is Shi'ite, while Saudi Arabia is Sunni (and these two are deadly rivals), Mr. Assad is a member of an Alawite (non-Sunni) majority - there are no such buzzwords connected to Turkish Islam these days. Nationalism does exist at a much higher level than other places with Islamic culture from what I hear - left and right are both nationalists in Turkey, with Kurds and the Armenian question (whether it was a genicude or simply war victims) being a blind spot even among the most liberal and international types..."

I assume that Turkey was originally Shi'ite, but gradually became even more secularized than Iran, to the point where Islam there morphed enough that it no longer fit into any of the categories you mentioned ... but the Imams who ran the Islamic world from what is now Saudia Arabia refused to dignify it with a name of its own.
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3PostSubject: Re: Turkey questions   Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:05 pm

Two new elements are in this reply that I have to contemplate - one is the special situation of Turkish Islam - together with its Dervish mysticism - unrecognized by the Sa'udi establishment.
Although I find the Q'uranic recitation magical, I can understand that this rift exists - Classical Arabic is so much closer to Modern Arabic than either Turkish or Farsi that it is almost inevitable they would develop rifts. There has been no comparable history in Christianity - Rome spoke a different language than Latin by the time Medieval Christianity emerged. Still, Protestantism holds a vague analogy in so far as the Bible was translated to German then to other national languages.

I regard Sa'udi Arabia as a really bad center of theocratic power on Earth.

A new element in the news is that it is likely that Russian intelligence alerted Erdogan to the possibility of an impending coup attempt and specifically that he should leave the resort he had been at. He said it was a matter of minutes... Another element in the news was that the two F16-s failed to shoot down his plane to Istanbul because it was signalling in flight control language that it was a passenger jet with many people aboard (I still think it was an amateur coup attempt and either Erdogan spies were in in from the start or spies with Russian ties - either way. Geopolitically it is a nightmare to think that Turkey aligned with Russia at any level. If Russia is not aggressive beyond its former Soviet sphere, it certainly could become with powerful allies. Indeed, the Dugin Doctrine dreams of an Eurasian Union from Kazakhstan to Hungary. Iranians have been fighting and training Shi'ite militias for a long time...

The other new element is the 6th and 7th element of Theocracy doing direct mind control. I can say I experienced some of this but I ascribed it to my unusual sensitivity and my having broken through the doors of perception, perceiving synchronicities etc. Yes, one must hide in the protective silence of the non-human realm to escape this. They come at you with finer levels - life feelings, memories, thoughts and memes. Sometimes your private thoughts are not private at all but they are small portions of War in Heaven fought at new levels... People can be so mechanical in spouting, for example, anti-Semitic vibes that you just don't believe the proportion and the loudness of it all.

All I say is that the next war will be fought on matters of faith and denomination much like the previous one was fought about race and ethnic issues.
And it is coming - there is only one thing that could stop it - a natural catastrophe like an epidemic (good chances with this Zika virus and the Olympic Games now) or simply the overreaching effect of the dramatical speed of Global Warming which of course Trump and his folks deny.
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4PostSubject: Re: Turkey questions   Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:15 pm

So I will return to these 6th and 7th level mind conkrol izzues to parakrase my friend RB... they are workhy of zum dizkussion at several levels
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5PostSubject: Re: Turkey questions   Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:40 am

reg, #3

reg said: Two new elements are in this reply that I have to contemplate - one is the special situation of Turkish Islam - together with its Dervish mysticism - unrecognized by the Sa'udi establishment. Although I find the Q'uranic recitation magical, I can understand that this rift exists - Classical Arabic is so much closer to Modern Arabic than either Turkish or Farsi that it is almost inevitable they would develop rifts. There has been no comparable history in Christianity - Rome spoke a different language than Latin by the time Medieval Christianity emerged. Still, Protestantism holds a vague analogy in so far as the Bible was translated to German then to other national languages.
SR's response: IMO, the Christian analogy to what you just mentioned involves the Greek Orthodox Church. Modern Greek is much closer to the Koine the New Testament was written in than modern Italian is to the Church Latin used by the Catholics in services and biblical translations throughout most of the modern era. So Orthodox Catholic lay people could always read the scriptures with only a little trouble, but Roman Catholics couldn't. This, of course, has changed since the Roman Church adopted the varnacular quite recently, and IMO will eventually cause a cultural revolution within the RC ... but this is still in the future.

reg said: I regard Sa'udi Arabia as a really bad center of theocratic power on Earth.
SR's response: So do I, and IMO, it's important for everyone who studies the history of Islam to realize that the Islamophobes who point out that the religion most likely started as an afterthought to an existing Arabian imperialistic movement are actually correct, and that the political dominance over the Islamic world under first the Iranians and then the Turks was always opposed by theocratic religious leaders operating out of what is now Saudi Arabia.

reg said: A new element in the news is that it is likely that Russian intelligence alerted Erdogan to the possibility of an impending coup attempt and specifically that he should leave the resort he had been at. He said it was a matter of minutes... Another element in the news was that the two F16-s failed to shoot down his plane to Istanbul because it was signalling in flight control language that it was a passenger jet with many people aboard (I still think it was an amateur coup attempt and either Erdogan spies were in in from the start or spies with Russian ties - either way. Geopolitically it is a nightmare to think that Turkey aligned with Russia at any level. If Russia is not aggressive beyond its former Soviet sphere, it certainly could become so with powerful allies. Indeed, the Dugin Doctrine dreams of an Eurasian Union from Kazakhstan to Hungary. Iranians have been fighting and training Shi'ite militias for a long time...
SR's response: This is a frightening theory, but seems to be supported an increasing amount of evidence. And it's also important to point out the the former Soviet Union poured a lot of effort and money into efforts to spread its influence into the Muslim world, with quite a degree of success. Egyptian leaders like Nassar and Palestinian leaders like Arafat were actually "Communists first and Islamic leaders second". As a Hungarian, you take this for granted, but it's a concept the citizens of most Western nations have trouble understanding or accepting. Nor do they realize that the early Zionists who set up the State of Israel were also heavily influenced by Soviet-style socialism, but this changed radically with the influx of so many Jews fleeing the Soviet Bloc during the Cold War.

reg said: The other new element is the 6th and 7th element of Theocracy doing direct mind control. I can say I experienced some of this but I ascribed it to my unusual sensitivity and my having broken through the doors of perception, perceiving synchronicities etc. Yes, one must hide in the protective silence of the non-human realm to escape this. They come at you with finer levels - life feelings, memories, thoughts and memes. Sometimes your private thoughts are not private at all but they are small portions of War in Heaven fought at new levels... People can be so mechanical in spouting, for example, anti-Semitic vibes that you just don't believe the proportion and the loudness of it all. All I say is that the next war will be fought on matters of faith and denomination much like the previous one was fought about race and ethnic issues. And it is coming - there is only one thing that could stop it - a natural catastrophe like an epidemic (good chances with this Zika virus and the Olympic Games now) or simply the overreaching effect of the dramatical speed of Global Warming which of course Trump and his folks deny.
SR's reply: When I wrote WiH back in the Eighties, my Guides were expecting that the war you're talking about would occur around the turn of the century, but this didn't happen because the IC victory over the Theocrats on the Astral Plane in 1999 was so quick and complete. However, even though the Bad Guys don't have access to Star Gate technology, they still have access to less powerful astral psionic technology that allows them to do extensive 6ST and 7ST mind control and set up the present confrontation between the West and the Islam world, with modern Russia, China, and India trying to keep from being caught in the middle ... and so far being able to do so. However, these three powers ARE going to get sucked in as actual hostilities start, and the IC can't predict what will happen then. I'm waiting to see your thoughts on this as mentioned in #4.
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6PostSubject: Re: Turkey questions   Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:44 am

I don't think the terrorists care who they attack, as they plan to kill everyone on the planet who will not join them and believe their way.
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7PostSubject: Re: Turkey questions   Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:16 am

Skytiger wrote:
I don't think the terrorists care who they attack, as they plan to kill everyone on the planet who will not join them and believe their way.

This is certainly true of terrorists working for DAESH and other jehadist organizations, but it's important to always keep in mind that terrorism is a military tactic, not an ideology, and there are many different kinds of terrorists. However, if you were to change "terrorists" to "servants of theocracy", I'd agree with you 100%.
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8PostSubject: Re: Turkey questions   Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:53 pm

I've had some deep thinking on the subject of this direct mind control issue - and I can certainly add my experiences with people... though it isn't easy to sum them up. I thought I was recently becoming much more sensitive to particular thought patterns that were ruled by various groups of spirits. But it does make sense that these spirits are grouped with people exercising some amount of mind control... it remains a question if those people are in turn are also controlled by the same spirits which live on some kind of feedback from them.
Over here we live on the ruins of the longest-living fifth-stage Theocracy ("godless dictatorship" with succeeding Führers), which turned out to be just one notch better than the Hitlerian empire they helped to the grave.
One particular group of spirits or direction of influence I have learned to detect very early bears actual similarity to the ideas of the various Fascists and Nazis of old times - nationalism is its credo, or anti-modernism, and here particularly a strong anti-Western sentiment. I recognize these influences or spirits by nonverbal means,or more exactly, by scanning the relationship of the verbal and the nonverbal. These days they mostly have a peculiar fire in their eyes, and thoughtwise they soon tend to reduce everything to extremes.
The content of discussions differs from individual to individual but there is a common theme: mindless acceptance of expressing strong collective emotions and drives without regard to consequences. A radical irrationalism, a disbelief in any good resulting from science and technology, and here in Eastern Europe it goes hand in hand with charicaturistic stereotypes about Jews. The odd thing is that these stereotypes of collective thinking are sometimes also used by Jewish people. That there are no "hardware" inheritance factors defining thought and behavior or that they have a far more complex relationship (relying upon the ideas of British biologist Sheldrake) is an anathema to them. One common factor is that they have difficulty really modelling foreign languages as this whole sphere relates to the "speaking ego" as Hindu and Buddhist philosophy puts it. These people can be generous and helpful, but somehow you start to sense early on that they have a hidden agenda. What it is is, never exposed, but behind the scenes they always try to win you over to something - the exact nature of which is completely unclear to them, as they usually dislike lengthy discussions on ideas at the surface level. They can even hang out with hippies, espouse green ideas but it all boils down to some sort of idealization of one sphere of consciousness - family and nation and language - which certainly exists but IMHO is no more fundamental than reason or individual consiousness, and these three are not exclusive of each other. In world politics, this type of person (or more precisely, this type of influence) certainly has a deep sympathy with politicians like Putin or Erdogan. At some deep meta-level they seem to tell you beyond all specific subjects of discussions that there is no development at all, modernity is bound to fail, and despotic rule and wilfulness is natural at some state of human existence and you can never do away with it. Usually they have a low tolerance of homosexuals or generally the archetype of "the Other".

What makes me think that this could be called loosely a certain brand of mind control is that while some individuals are usually this way, most of the time, and I have gotten used to their being this way, their level of involvement varies with time. Sometimes they are more reasonable but within hours or days they will return to this subtle violence in feeling and thought, or in the levels of behind the particular argument.

The other type is more difficult to pinpoint though its ideological style is simpler. And it is less frequent in this part of the world. Bible-thumping or calling on a war against infidels is part of it. However, I already saw this "more religious type" of mind control in a dream decade ago. All major religions are broadcasting these messages these days, but my dream was about a Muslim variant specifically. In a lengthy dream I was shown scene after scene where the essence was that Muslims were the most tolerant and accepting type of people on Earth, so much so that they easily put up with science and atheists, with freedom and science flowering (as indeed they were in certain historical periods of the Arab empire).

I periodically saw what I could describe as people watching me or staring at me in this dream - not unpleasantly.
They were indeed wise and intelligent and they indeed showed me many wonders and were quite non-dogmatic about this while affair. I realized also that their view of Christianity was actually quite modern - provided that you take monotheism seriously, which after much reflection and consciousness-opening practices I can no longer do. They told me that they did not expect me to renounce alcohol or pray five times a day in Arabic, only if I feel like doing it, since I would be a Western convert, and that it was enough when a certain number of people would say their prayers at mosques or observe formal prescriptions. That indeed sounded very wise, accepting and strategical.

The only thing that aroused my suspicion on awakening was that the entire thing was so unnecessary. I had the feeling that I was receiving a broadcast I was not intended to receive. I was already in sympathy with many human things from Muslim civilizations, chiefly music and decorative art, in fact I psent my meager earnings on Sufic records, yet I was not ready to convert because of my above described stance. Plus I was not a decisionmaker even by a long stretch - I was simply an intellectual in exile, living on handcrafts in America. This must have happened around 92 or even as far as 94. It must have been a pilot project - I was already aware of the fact that the Soviets used similar techniques with good results (and I felt its effect sometimes on myself).

At the time I had not much of a concept of mind control - I thought that maybe shamans could influence people from afar and telepathy existed but mind control by government secret services was certainly a nutty idea to me and it still is - though as soon as I say these styles are governed by spirit groups then it certainly isn't nutty any more, it's very realistic. I could see that the two major players of the Cold War HAVE experimented with broadcasting targeted to certain groups or individuals - see the book by Sheila Ostrander and another author on Psychic Experiments Behind the Iron Curtain.

So what changed these days? Apart from my stepping to a higher degree? At least so I believe (though maybe someone will say that I am actually at a lower level, only deceiving myself about it).

These background influences are far more direct and synchronous in these latter years. The experience that I think of someone then soon they call or I think of this or that particular group of spirits (mainly these two apart from my favorite group which is allied to freedom, development, modern art and Indian spiritual things among other things) and shortly after they call me or send me an email is an everyday experience now. People bring up topics I was thinking about. I open a book at random and I see the very word or idea I was thinking about. But I simply ascribed this to a living relationship with the mind of the Universe, an interplay of Jungian Ego and Self.

For this very reason I feel mind control is not the best term for me because some of it is a two-way business: I am trying to serve balls (like in table tennis) also, I deflect them and hit them back. As the Guidelines after WiH suggest, I am trying to avoid direct arguments more and more and develop some verbal strategies uch as asking "Why is this issue so important to you?" for example or simply "So what do YOU think about this?" and then going just "Aha..." which is something unheard of in this culture except for psychiatrists and priests.

Also, as verbal as I am, over the years I learned to tune out of broadcasts and turn off verbal thinking altogether or to put it on a harmless screen like a computer far away. Learning about the Yogic Age Treta Yuga certainly catapulted my thoughts to a new breakthrough - I am a linguist and studied language acquisition as well as the language of suggestion in NLP. So I am far too much knwoledgeable about the shortcomings of a code system that developed out of something like the chirping of birds. But then again, what my recent focus on Treta Yuga could be deeply is about this phenomenon  of "direct mind control".

I would prefer to talk about a growth of telepathy. Now when these two influences come into play - 6th stage and 7th stage mind influence - my experience with a conversation partner is simply that they suddenly become telepathically deaf. They are tuned to some broadcast which makes them glorify Putin or any other modern Theocrat or the ideas they espouse, or they keep on bringing up God or Allah or Jahwe but not in the way I feel serves understanding, peace and progress. I used to feel that this type of Conservativism came with age, when an individual on any planet is no longer able to look at like with joy or a sense of social participation, but now younger and middle-aged people display the same thing while there are many older people that are models of being open-minded and reflective.

I think that a positive transcendence of reason is required in human development and not a return to irrationalism or savagery. Jewish people in our culture after the Holocaust used to be models of watching out and warning about every type of violent tribal emotion - no longer so, they seem to have molded into their own group which feeds off the justified fear of Nazi-style thoughts...

Some Tibetan sects (such as Bön) say that there are several groups of spirits, and one of them are "the spirits of the land". They make offerings to these but they have all these difficult categories like any good system would have from the Middle Ages.

Well, another similar dream I had between 2003-2006 was that the whole country of Hungary was represented by a large group of people crammed into a small room, trying to make a deal with another group which was basically forced out to the corridor but some just wanted to remain. There were Hungarians but there were many Russians on our side too - I had the impression that one could not move one's body at all unless the Russians wanted or allowed it and while these negotiations were going on they certainly disallowed even the tiniest gesture. All in all, the summary was that spiritually speaking we cannot be torn away from the group that is controlled from Russia. And at the time Russia was not yet showing its potential for dictatorship, wars and remilitarization... at least not yet to a level noticeable to anyone but a specialist on Russia.
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9PostSubject: Re: Turkey questions   Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:41 pm

Back to Turkey: it seems more and more likely as the days go by that Erdogan planned this coup attempt or at the least he let it happen because the lists of firing tens of thousands of state administrators, teachers and judges was already prepared. These people are called Gülenist. A mere suspicion these days is sufficient for being fired. Erdogan is adamant that the US extradite Gülen, who does seem like a fanatic (of a particularly peaceful, Turkish nationalist brand of Islam) but does not seem to be organized enough to execute a military coup inside Turkey.
The Russian hand is more unsettling - even to my friend who is practically a Turkologist. Not only that Russian intelligence warning probably helped Erdogan escape a couple of hot situations, but the sheer fact that he chose this week earlier of all times to publicly apologize to Russia for the earlier shooting down of the Russian fighter planes. A more unsettling possibility is that Russia organized the whole event now that Erdogan - though dead-set on being an independent power - made that and other gestures of rapprochement. I can imagine the talks - dear Reccep, you get nothing from these cold-blooded Europeans, but a few billions of Euros which is a fraction of what you need; they don't want you in their Union,yet they keep on lecturing you and drawing away your best and brightest - either to land in the unislamic Pagan West or turning into bomb-carrying radicals which we have no use of... Come to the bosom of Mother Russia, and you will have all the absolute power you want...
So Putin has already several NATO states in his lure: Hungary, Czech Republic (partly), Slovak Republic (partly), and even has sympathies with the anti-Russian new Polish right.
Now comes Trump with his "Americanism" (I predicted the use of this term back in 1987 in an antiutopian story written for college creative writing - and the professor flatly refused the main idea). He seems to like Putin, and authoritarian leadership of society in general, and his idea of the US as the "guardian of the free world" sounds like "the free world" can go screw itself and America should be simply a nation (of white Christian and Jewish people basically) who competes with other nations. Plays excellently into the hands of the anti-globalist sentiments - capital has become global while workers' movements atrophied, but geopolitically it would be a disaster - throwing out everything that the world agreed upon after the defeat of Nazis and the Japanese Empire, and as neo-Conservatives have long argued (I was just scanning through a book by Ann Coulter left here by my relatives) turning around the long-held consensus of historians that there was something common in the French Revolution and the American one from the point of view of social development.
All these people - Erdogan, Trump and Putin - want to drag people back to the Middle Ages basically. Enlightenment is their enemy and a romantic irrationalism is their credo. Yuo have vanilla, strawberry and chocolate - all the same thing.
Now watch if the price of oil goes below 40 dollars a barrel... more trouble in and around Turkey, Erdogan changes his mind and the EU is flooded with millions of people suddenly, Russia attacks a few small fringe states (Tallin etc.) and waits again for the EU and NATO to completely fragment...
Turkey out of NATO is a frightening scenario. Turkey fragmenting or blackmailing NATO for promoting Russian interests (like not answering a blitzkrieg in the Baltics) is another...
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10PostSubject: Re: Turkey questions   Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:35 pm

reg, #8:

reg said: I've had some deep thinking on the subject of this direct mind control issue - and I can certainly add my experiences with people... though it isn't easy to sum them up. I thought I was recently becoming much more sensitive to particular thought patterns that were ruled by various groups of spirits. But it does make sense that these spirits are grouped with people exercising some amount of mind control... it remains a question if those people are in turn are also controlled by the same spirits which live on some kind of feedback from them.
SR's response: According to my Guides, the relationships between 6ST and 7ST Theocrats on the Astral Plane and the people they are controlling on the Earth Plane are not the same as those described in WiH, which involve direct telepathic theocratic control of other disembodied spirits that includes the tapping of their energy. There is is no need for energy feedback in the modern scenario, because the Theocrats can tap the energy they need from their APT equipment.

reg said: Over here we live on the ruins of the longest-living fifth-stage Theocracy ("godless dictatorship" with succeeding Führers), which turned out to be just one notch better than the Hitlerian empire they helped to the grave. One particular group of spirits or direction of influence I have learned to detect very early bears actual similarity to the ideas of the various Fascists and Nazis of old times - nationalism is its credo, or anti-modernism, and here particularly a strong anti-Western sentiment. I recognize these influences or spirits by nonverbal means,or more exactly, by scanning the relationship of the verbal and the nonverbal. These days they mostly have a peculiar fire in their eyes, and thoughtwise they soon tend to reduce everything to extremes. The content of discussions differs from individual to individual but there is a common theme: mindless acceptance of expressing strong collective emotions and drives without regard to consequences. A radical irrationalism, a disbelief in any good resulting from science and technology, and here in Eastern Europe it goes hand in hand with charicaturistic stereotypes about Jews. The odd thing is that these stereotypes of collective thinking are sometimes also used by Jewish people. That there are no "hardware" inheritance factors defining thought and behavior or that they have a far more complex relationship (relying upon the ideas of British biologist Sheldrake) is an anathema to them. One common factor is that they have difficulty really modelling foreign languages as this whole sphere relates to the "speaking ego" as Hindu and Buddhist philosophy puts it. These people can be generous and helpful, but somehow you start to sense early on that they have a hidden agenda. What it is is, never exposed, but behind the scenes they always try to win you over to something - the exact nature of which is completely unclear to them, as they usually dislike lengthy discussions on ideas at the surface level. They can even hang out with hippies, espouse green ideas but it all boils down to some sort of idealization of one sphere of consciousness - family and nation and language - which certainly exists but IMHO is no more fundamental than reason or individual consiousness, and these three are not exclusive of each other. In world politics, this type of person (or more precisely, this type of influence) certainly has a deep sympathy with politicians like Putin or Erdogan. At some deep meta-level they seem to tell you beyond all specific subjects of discussions that there is no development at all, modernity is bound to fail, and despotic rule and wilfulness is natural at some state of human existence and you can never do away with it. Usually they have a low tolerance of homosexuals or generally the archetype of "the Other".
SR's response: According to my Guides much of what you just described as taking place in Hungary these days is also happening in Russia and China. And once they pointed this out, I can instantly spot all sorts of parallels. At that this point, they also tied in the extreme right wing movements in the USA and other Western countries, which are using similar methods expressed in a wide variety of different ideological models. This makes events like the Trump phenomenon and Brexit make a lot more sense.

reg said: What makes me think that this could be called loosely a certain brand of mind control is that while some individuals are usually this way, most of the time, and I have gotten used to their being this way, their level of involvement varies with time. Sometimes they are more reasonable but within hours or days they will return to this subtle violence in feeling and thought, or in the levels of behind the particular argument. The other type is more difficult to pinpoint though its ideological style is simpler. And it is less frequent in this part of the world. Bible-thumping or calling on a war against infidels is part of it. However, I already saw this "more religious type" of mind control in a dream decade ago. All major religions are broadcasting these messages these days, but my dream was about a Muslim variant specifically. In a lengthy dream I was shown scene after scene where the essence was that Muslims were the most tolerant and accepting type of people on Earth, so much so that they easily put up with science and atheists, with freedom and science flowering (as indeed they were in certain historical periods of the Arab empire). I periodically saw what I could describe as people watching me or staring at me in this dream - not unpleasantly. They were indeed wise and intelligent and they indeed showed me many wonders and were quite non-dogmatic about this while affair. I realized also that their view of Christianity was actually quite modern - provided that you take monotheism seriously, which after much reflection and consciousness-opening practices I can no longer do. They told me that they did not expect me to renounce alcohol or pray five times a day in Arabic, only if I feel like doing it, since I would be a Western convert, and that it was enough when a certain number of people would say their prayers at mosques or observe formal prescriptions. That indeed sounded very wise, accepting and strategical. The only thing that aroused my suspicion on awakening was that the entire thing was so unnecessary. I had the feeling that I was receiving a broadcast I was not intended to receive. I was already in sympathy with many human things from Muslim civilizations, chiefly music and decorative art, in fact I spent my meager earnings on Sufic records, yet I was not ready to convert because of my above described stance. Plus I was not a decision maker even by a long stretch - I was simply an intellectual in exile, living on handcrafts in America. This must have happened around 92 or even as far as 94. It must have been a pilot project - I was already aware of the fact that the Soviets used similar techniques with good results (and I felt its effect sometimes on myself).
SR's response:I remember having similar experiences in both dreams and waking psychic experiences during the same period of time, and my Guides told me that the cause was a world-wide effort by Islamic Theocrats to consolidate power all over the world through telepathic mind control on a subconscious level.

reg said: At the time I had not much of a concept of mind control - I thought that maybe shamans could influence people from afar and telepathy existed but mind control by government secret services was certainly a nutty idea to me and it still is - though as soon as I say these styles are governed by spirit groups then it certainly isn't nutty any more, it's very realistic. I could see that the two major players of the Cold War HAVE experimented with broadcasting targeted to certain groups or individuals - see the book by Sheila Ostrander and another author on Psychic Experiments Behind the Iron Curtain. So what changed these days? Apart from my stepping to a higher degree? At least so I believe (though maybe someone will say that I am actually at a lower level, only deceiving myself about it). These background influences are far more direct and synchronous in these latter years. The experience that I think of someone then soon they call or I think of this or that particular group of spirits (mainly these two apart from my favorite group which is allied to freedom, development, modern art and Indian spiritual things among other things) and shortly after they call me or send me an email is an everyday experience now. People bring up topics I was thinking about. I open a book at random and I see the very word or idea I was thinking about. But I simply ascribed this to a living relationship with the mind of the Universe, an interplay of Jungian Ego and Self.
SR's response: I found this and the rest of your message extremely important and enlightening, because I probably would have had similar experiences myself if I had not made my 1983 breakthrough and channeled the WiH book. And I assume the main reason you can remember these details and assemble them into coherent discriptions now is because of the series of breakthroughs you've been making since you read WiH. And I'm hoping that your detailed decriptions of the evolution of your own understandng of spiritual reality will help future readers of these boards make similar analyses of their own experiences.

reg, #9:

reg said: Back to Turkey: it seems more and more likely as the days go by that Erdogan planned this coup attempt or at the least he let it happen because the lists of firing tens of thousands of state administrators, teachers and judges was already prepared. These people are called Gülenist. A mere suspicion these days is sufficient for being fired. Erdogan is adamant that the US extradite Gülen, who does seem like a fanatic (of a particularly peaceful, Turkish nationalist brand of Islam) but does not seem to be organized enough to execute a military coup inside Turkey. The Russian hand is more unsettling - even to my friend who is practically a Turkologist. Not only that Russian intelligence warning probably helped Erdogan escape a couple of hot situations, but the sheer fact that he chose this week earlier of all times to publicly apologize to Russia for the earlier shooting down of the Russian fighter planes. A more unsettling possibility is that Russia organized the whole event now that Erdogan - though dead-set on being an independent power - made that and other gestures of rapprochement. I can imagine the talks - dear Reccep, you get nothing from these cold-blooded Europeans, but a few billions of Euros which is a fraction of what you need; they don't want you in their Union, yet they keep on lecturing you and drawing away your best and brightest - either to land in the unislamic Pagan West or turning into bomb-carrying radicals which we have no use of... Come to the bosom of Mother Russia, and you will have all the absolute power you want... So Putin has already several NATO states in his lure: Hungary, Czech Republic (partly), Slovak Republic (partly), and even has sympathies with the anti-Russian new Polish right.
SR's response: All this makes a great deal of sense to me, and my Guides point out that there is always a lot more covert contact between officials of what you might call "high-demand government" than most people in the more enlightened Western countries realize, especially on the exchange of information through "letter agencies", which is always kept secret, and can be denied if it leaks.

reg said: Now comes Trump with his "Americanism" (I predicted the use of this term back in 1987 in an antiutopian story written for college creative writing - and the professor flatly refused the main idea). He seems to like Putin, and authoritarian leadership of society in general, and his idea of the US as the "guardian of the free world" sounds like "the free world" can go screw itself and America should be simply a nation (of white Christian and Jewish people basically) who competes with other nations. Plays excellently into the hands of the anti-globalist sentiments - capital has become global while workers' movements atrophied, but geopolitically it would be a disaster - throwing out everything that the world agreed upon after the defeat of Nazis and the Japanese Empire, and as neo-Conservatives have long argued (I was just scanning through a book by Ann Coulter left here by my relatives) turning around the long-held consensus of historians that there was something common in the French Revolution and the American one from the point of view of social development. All these people - Erdogan, Trump and Putin - want to drag people back to the Middle Ages basically. Enlightenment is their enemy and a romantic irrationalism is their credo. Yuo have vanilla, strawberry and chocolate - all the same thing.
SR's response: All of this makes a lot of sense to me, and I've been thinking along similar lines as the news events you mentioned have been revealed. However, so far I've unable to channel any meaningful information from my Guides about what is going to happen next ... they aren't in direct control of these changes, so they, like us, can only speculate.

reg said: "Now watch if the price of oil goes below 40 dollars a barrel... more trouble in and around Turkey, Erdogan changes his mind and the EU is flooded with millions of people suddenly, Russia attacks a few small fringe states (Tallin etc.) and waits again for the EU and NATO to completely fragment... Turkey out of NATO is a frightening scenario. Turkey fragmenting or blackmailing NATO for promoting Russian interests (like not answering a blitzkrieg in the Baltics) is another..."
SR's response: My Guides speculations on these events are that the outcome of the 2016 US Presidential Election is one of the most important factors. Most of the things you're afraid might happen would be a lot more probable under a Trump Administration than under a Clinton Administration. And of course 6ST and 7ST mind control by the Bad Guys and direct use of Star Gate technology by the Good Guys put still another dimensions on all this, one that people like us can't even make realistic speculations about right now.

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11PostSubject: Re: Turkey questions   

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Turkey questions
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