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 Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe

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regmelocco



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1PostSubject: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:02 am

The lines are  clearer every day now... In a certain way, my worst fears are confirmed, in another way, I know what we are fighting against - with our modest and non-physical ways...
Mr. Orban, our Prime Minister has given his annual speech in a Hungarian community Tusnádfürdő in Transylvania (Romania) where a sizable Hungarian-speaking community usually backs him, with right-wing celebrities travelling for the occasion, and EU press dissecting the speech.
He is the first and only European leader in office who openly backs Donald Trump, and says that what Clinton would bring to Europe is the worst, a disaster. His main point is refugees - he calls them 'migrants'. He has a popular referendum scheduled for October 2 which is about whether those he regards as Hungarian citizens (certainly not those that work abroad, however, hundreds of thousands his party registered in neighboring countries will be allowed to vote by mail) would accept the quota of less than a couple of thousand Middle Eastern refugees settled in Hungary at the EU's request. The referendum would have no legal consequence, unlike the British one, since EU law is formally above national law in this matter. Everyone points out that the wording and the timing of this referendum is simply about his trying to blow up (or erode) the European Union (though slowly, because his self-styled mafia is still taking large EU monies for public investments - spread among his clients only, of course).

Clinton was already critical of him in 2011, she and Ambassador Kounalakis basically stated that Orbán is an autocrat, with severe corruption and questionable ties to Putin. Since then, the US banned six unnamed government leaders in office from entering the US for proven trails of large-scale corruption.

Of course a Clinton win would be a disaster in diplomacy for Orbán and generally for other far right nationalists, and it would threaten his power if such a critic of his regime would come to power in the US. Yet despite private interests and preferences, no other elected leader in office in the EU went so far as to openly chide the Clinton campaign in the most important public speech of the year and openly endorse Trump, citing the fear of 'aliens settling in Europe.' Mr. Orban expressed that he wanted a common EU force to defend Europe's borders, at the same time, he makes it clear speech by speech that 'our main enemy is Brussels,' which in his words is 'like Moscow' (in Soviet times). One starts to wonder how on Earth he imagines defending Europe against Brussels... It sounds illogical, but if you read Erdogan's or Putin's script it isn't - Germany should give us the money, Putin and Erdogan and the like would rule most of Europe. Otherwise the whole argument would sound so idiotic that a first grade student would shake his or her head. However, if you add the missing piece of the puzzle, it sounds demonic, not idiotic.

At the same time, the Clinton campaign made it clear that the sudden release of the Clinton emails on Wikileaks was probably the work of state-sponsored Russian hackers serving in the GRU. Which sounds regrettably true or believable to me, and I don't think Clinton or her campaign manager would risk saying this without serious intelligence in the background.

To illustrate the total absurdity of the situation, the Orbán campaign is going to take a referendum against the settling of some 1,500 (fifteen hundred) refugees in 10-million Hungary, while tens of thousands of Ukrainians, Russians and Chinese settle every year in Hungary. Some pay the tens of thousands of Euros or dollars to buy the prescribed amount of state bonds (which money does not go to the state coffers but to the mediating company of Mr. Habony and Mr. Rogán, two chief mafiosi allied to Orbán). Possibly far more - several tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands in the past four years have paid the bribes to mediator organizations for proving that they nominally have some Hungarian roots. An entire mafia industry is set up in Russia and Ukraine to pay people for forged papers and bribes to mayors in Hungarian cities along the Ukrainian border, investigative journalists found, with web pages openly advertising EU citizenship in Hungary in Russian.

That does not mean the customers always get what they want - the mafia chiefs frequently just take the money and not provide your papers, you can never tell - it sounds like a similar situation to the human trafficking from Libya and Turkey.

While I am not against either Syrians escaping from the horrors or Russians escaping the dictatorships or Chinese businessmen from Hong Kong settling in Hungary, these double standards are scary.

We are talking about a referendum which costs millions of dollars in a country smaller than Virginia and having less people than the greater New York City area, against the German-backed EU settlement of some 1,500 people, while Orbán is beating the iron drums of the "clashes of civilization" endorsed by Mr. Trump and his fiends take the bribes to settle hundreds of thousands in the same place.

The only good thing is that they are trying to delay the exit of Hungary as much as they can because they would stop receiving the EU moneys and they know most likely an open civil war would break out and civilization would collapse like in Syria if that happens at a bad moment. Or - they will take the Erdogan pill - legislation is already in place to suspend Internet and introduce a police state in case of 'terrorism'. All the time they are stoking the fires of the darkest hatreds, racism against Gypsies and Draconian measures against other poor people (Hungary has an openly segregated school system), against gays, Jews (though nominally they call for the support of Holocaust memorials, they could find no Jewish cleric to be as corrupt as to serve their rotten regime) and against members of any other religion than the officially recognized three.

Farage, LePen and other far right parties have come out in support of Trump but no politician serving in office, left or right across the EU has dared to openly name things as Orbán did. He is an enemy of freedom and his logic resembles that of ticks and other parasites as far as his economic effect goes.

Back to mammalian metaphors, we have indeed trusted the sheep to the care of the wolf, who does not even care to mask his teeth any more. And the Russian bear is behind him steadily.

Indeed, a Trump-Putin world would be scarcely better than the situation was when Hitler and Stalin decided to divide the world.
We need a Roosevelt. Severely.

Trump just introduced Mike Pence, his choice for vice president...
Does the name Szondi ring a bell? This psychoanalyst of Hungarian extraction became famous (and pursued his career in Switzerland) by working out a test consisting of showing photos of the faces of various people with distorted psyches and writing down their reactions and their votes for sympathy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szondi_test

Well, nothing more has to be said for Mike Pence - his face shows it all. Most likely a severely disturbed psychopath with sadistic tendencies and paranoid ideation.
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2PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:02 pm

regmelocco, #1, Topic: "Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe"

reg said: The lines are clearer every day now... In a certain way, my worst fears are confirmed, in another way, I know what we are fighting against - with our modest and non-physical ways...
RR's reply: I feel forced to second what you just wrote, because I'm writing this just a few hours after Hillary Clinton officially received the Democratic Party's nomination for President ... and President Obama expressed fears that Donald Trump now stands a chance of getting elected.

reg said: Mr. Orban, our Prime Minister has given his annual speech in a Hungarian community Tusnádfürdo in Transylvania (Romania) where a sizable Hungarian-speaking community usually backs him, with right-wing celebrities travelling for the occasion, and EU press dissecting the speech. He is the first and only European leader in office who openly backs Donald Trump, and says that what Clinton would bring to Europe is the worst, a disaster. His main point is refugees - he calls them 'migrants'. He has a popular referendum scheduled for October 2 which is about whether those he regards as Hungarian citizens (certainly not those that work abroad, however, hundreds of thousands his party registered in neighboring countries will be allowed to vote by mail) would accept the quota of less than a couple of thousand Middle Eastern refugees settled in Hungary at the EU's request. The referendum would have no legal consequence, unlike the British one, since EU law is formally above national law in this matter. Everyone points out that the wording and the timing of this referendum is simply about his trying to blow up (or erode) the European Union (though slowly, because his self-styled mafia is still taking large EU monies for public investments - spread among his clients only, of course). Clinton was already critical of him in 2011, she and Ambassador Kounalakis basically stated that Orbán is an autocrat, with severe corruption and questionable ties to Putin. Since then, the US banned six unnamed government leaders in office from entering the US for proven trails of large-scale corruption. Of course a Clinton win would be a disaster in diplomacy for Orbán and generally for other far right nationalists, and it would threaten his power if such a critic of his regime would come to power in the US. Yet despite private interests and preferences, no other elected leader in office in the EU went so far as to openly chide the Clinton campaign in the most important public speech of the year and openly endorse Trump, citing the fear of 'aliens settling in Europe.' Mr. Orban expressed that he wanted a common EU force to defend Europe's borders, at the same time, he makes it clear speech by speech that 'our main enemy is Brussels,' which in his words is 'like Moscow' (in Soviet times). One starts to wonder how on Earth he imagines defending Europe against Brussels... It sounds illogical, but if you read Erdogan's or Putin's script it isn't - Germany should give us the money, Putin and Erdogan and the like would rule most of Europe. Otherwise the whole argument would sound so idiotic that a first grade student would shake his or her head. However, if you add the missing piece of the puzzle, it sounds demonic, not idiotic."
RR's response: IMO, the recent passage of Brexit in the UK is a sign that the right-wing conspiracy network you just described extends far beyond Hungary. There's no doubt that a serious effort is being made to establish a Neo Fascist movement all over Europe, with Putin as an ally to the East, and the US faction that nominated Donald Trump to the West. Now, I've listened to enough speeches by members of the ruling British Conservative Party, who seem to have taken a line that would be considered very liberal here in the USA, not to entertain fears that the UK will join any kind of Fascist replacement for the EU, but as I said above, even President Obama seems afraid that this country could elect Trump this fall. I assume that he's primarily trying to stimulate active support for Clinton during the rest of the campaign, but there's still a deep-seated right-wing populist streak in a lot of Americans that scares me a significant amount.

reg said: At the same time, the Clinton campaign made it clear that the sudden release of the Clinton emails on Wikileaks was probably the work of state-sponsored Russian hackers serving in the GRU. Which sounds regrettably true or believable to me, and I don't think Clinton or her campaign manager would risk saying this without serious intelligence in the background.
RR's response: The latest new here is that lots of important Democrats are openly accusing Trump of being in collusion with Putin to beat Clinton, and The Donald has doubled down by inviting Putin in so many words to encourage the hacking and leaking of more of Hillary's e-mails. I find this extremely scary, because it may mean that there will indeed be further releases ... and it will be extremely difficult to debunk any complete fiction that's included in them.

reg said: To illustrate the total absurdity of the situation, the Orbán campaign is going to take a referendum against the settling of some 1,500 (fifteen hundred) refugees in 10-million Hungary, while tens of thousands of Ukrainians, Russians and Chinese settle every year in Hungary. Some pay the tens of thousands of Euros or dollars to buy the prescribed amount of state bonds (which money does not go to the state coffers but to the mediating company of Mr. Habony and Mr. Rogán, two chief mafiosi allied to Orbán). Possibly far more - several tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands in the past four years have paid the bribes to mediator organizations for proving that they nominally have some Hungarian roots. An entire mafia industry is set up in Russia and Ukraine to pay people for forged papers and bribes to mayors in Hungarian cities along the Ukrainian border, investigative journalists found, with web pages openly advertising EU citizenship in Hungary in Russian. That does not mean the customers always get what they want - the mafia chiefs frequently just take the money and not provide your papers, you can never tell - it sounds like a similar situation to the human trafficking from Libya and Turkey.
RR's resonse: I won't be surprised if something similar happens here in the US as the campaign procedes, because bribery and influence peddling here are much more common than most Americans realize. Most of our major cities still have large, powerful organized crime families, and there seems to be similar corruption inside many of the multinational corporations that are now exporting their business operations overseas.

reg said: While I am not against either Syrians escaping from the horrors or Russians escaping the dictatorships or Chinese businessmen from Hong Kong settling in Hungary, these double standards are scary. We are talking about a referendum which costs millions of dollars in a country smaller than Virginia and having less people than the greater New York City area, against the German-backed EU settlement of some 1,500 people, while Orbán is beating the iron drums of the "clashes of civilization" endorsed by Mr. Trump and his fiends take the bribes to settle hundreds of thousands in the same place. The only good thing is that they are trying to delay the exit of Hungary as much as they can because they would stop receiving the EU moneys and they know most likely an open civil war would break out and civilization would collapse like in Syria if that happens at a bad moment. Or - they will take the Erdogan pill - legislation is already in place to suspend Internet and introduce a police state in case of 'terrorism'. All the time they are stoking the fires of the darkest hatreds, racism against Gypsies and Draconian measures against other poor people (Hungary has an openly segregated school system), against gays, Jews (though nominally they call for the support of Holocaust memorials, they could find no Jewish cleric to be as corrupt as to serve their rotten regime) and against members of any other religion than the officially recognized three.
RR's response: Most Europeans don't seem to be aware of it, but the Obama Administration has already almost completely shut down the immigration to the USA of Muslims fleeing from the Middle East, and it's not in the interests of either the American right or left to talk to the mass media about this. But at least Obama has succeeding in keeping the traditional American liberalism alive and reasonably well here, even though the Republicans who now control both houses of Congress keep drifting further and further to the right.

reg said: Farage, LePen and other far right parties have come out in support of Trump but no politician serving in office, left or right across the EU has dared to openly name things as Orbán did. He is an enemy of freedom and his logic resembles that of ticks and other parasites as far as his economic effect goes.
RR's response: Until Trump came along, there was no organized party of the far right here in the USA comparable to those of Farage in the UK and LePen in France. This is because extreme conservatives have virtually taken over leadership of the Republican Party over the last few decades, even though the majority of people who vote for GOP candidates are only slightly to the right of center. And I'm hoping that a significant number of the populists who are now supporting Trump will see the light over the course of the campaign ... but I have no idea right now what the odds are.

reg said: Back to mammalian metaphors, we have indeed trusted the sheep to the care of the wolf, who does not even care to mask his teeth any more. And the Russian bear is behind him steadily. Indeed, a Trump-Putin world would be scarcely better than the situation was when Hitler and Stalin decided to divide the world.
We need a Roosevelt. Severely."
RR's response: I agree, and Clinton doesn't have the charisma and leadership ability that FDR had, but she may get elected without it, because Trump is still just an entertainer with no political experience whatsoever, not the "Great Leader" he he pretends to be.

reg said: Trump just introduced Mike Pence, his choice for vice president...
Does the name Szondi ring a bell? This psychoanalyst of Hungarian extraction became famous (and pursued his career in Switzerland) by working out a test consisting of showing photos of the faces of various people with distorted psyches and writing down their reactions and their votes for sympathy. Well, nothing more has to be said for Mike Pence - his face shows it all. Most likely a severely disturbed psychopath with sadistic tendencies and paranoid ideation.
RR's response: I read the article on Szondi, and I'm glad his theories have never caught on enough here in the USA for me to be familiar with them. IMO, he was even more of a nut-studded fruitcake than Wilhelm Reich, who did get lots of publicity here for many years. However, I'm reassured that Trump seems to have picked a running mate who probably isn't going to make as large a positive contribution to his campaign as Clinton's VP choice probably will. Tom Kaine seems to be able to argue reasonably well to support the agenda she's presenting, and has reasonably good credentials inside the Democratic Party.
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3PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:09 pm

I've had two dreams related to Mr. Trump during the past few weeks...

One: I saw Mr. Trump on a small stage - I walked on stage from the back, the whole thing was smaller than a movie theater of a country town here. He turned back to his audience as if he just finished his speech, noticed me and extended his hand for me to shake, which I did. He added one of his usual platitudes, thereupon I found myself saying something like "Notwithstanding, I will probably vote for Bernie if you don't mind."

He didn't seem to mind that. He got out a huge cigar from a pocket and proceeded to light it, Then he pronounced that it was the wrong cigar, threw it away, at which his aides looked desperate.
Then he suddenly found another one which looked just the same. He lit it and seemed to enjoy this second cigar. Then suddenly he collapsed backwards into the musician's pit as if he was having some sudden attack and failed to move. The cigar was still smoking in his hand.

My second dream was much more everyday but in a way scary. All I remember is that for several hours I went through several dreams and many scenes, over here and in America, usually very neat, average places. At every location I discovered the very same poster about him, which had not much of his flamboyant character at all. I saw at least three dozen of these posters in the most varied scenes on Earth. True, I didn't go off the Earth as I did a few times I remember in dreams... Sea and dry land, city and village, mountain and flatland - they all had a Trump poster.

As I'm writing this now I think this second dream may still have had a positive message - that there is an alert all over the world now to all progressive people from all nations (I think I've even been to Russia and some tropical place) to be careful about what this guy represents. The dream itself had that very unpleasant feeling of no characteristics but a sense of constant foreboding like one of the Fellini movies about various empty-headed partying in Italy in the fifties all ending up in some symbolic disaster without any real drama being seen. The poster was far older in style, like from the forties or thirties, drawn and painted, it was not a photograph.
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4PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:44 pm

reg, #3

reg said: I've had two dreams related to Mr. Trump during the past few weeks...
One: I saw Mr. Trump on a small stage - I walked on stage from the back, the whole thing was smaller than a movie theater of a country town here. He turned back to his audience as if he just finished his speech, noticed me and extended his hand for me to shake, which I did. He added one of his usual platitudes, thereupon I found myself saying something like "Notwithstanding, I will probably vote for Bernie if you don't mind." He didn't seem to mind that. He got out a huge cigar from a pocket and proceeded to light it, Then he pronounced that it was the wrong cigar, threw it away, at which his aides looked desperate. Then he suddenly found another one which looked just the same. He lit it and seemed to enjoy this second cigar. Then suddenly he collapsed backwards into the musician's pit as if he was having some sudden attack and failed to move. The cigar was still smoking in his hand.
RS's response: Seeing Trump presiding on a small stage brings to mind his career as a reality show host. I've never watched any of his shows, so I don't know if he shook hands with his male guests, but my suspicion is that he didn't. Nor do I remember him shaking hands with anyone during his campaign speeches. But he's frequently bragged that he's never smoked tobacco in any form, so it's easy to imagine him pretending to smoke a cigar as performance art stunt and then pretending to keel over. And he's frequently said that he expects a lot of Bernie supporters to end up voting for him, even though the statistical evidence has always been that few of them will. So I really don't know what to make of this dream, except that dreaming about yourself or anyone else dying suddenly and mysteriously is a positive omen in many dream interpretation systems.

reg said: My second dream was much more everyday but in a way scary. All I remember is that for several hours I went through several dreams and many scenes, over here and in America, usually very neat, average places. At every location I discovered the very same poster about him, which had not much of his flamboyant character at all. I saw at least three dozen of these posters in the most varied scenes on Earth. True, I didn't go off the Earth as I did a few times I remember in dreams... Sea and dry land, city and village, mountain and flatland - they all had a Trump poster. As I'm writing this now I think this second dream may still have had a positive message - that there is an alert all over the world now to all progressive people from all nations (I think I've even been to Russia and some tropical place) to be careful about what this guy represents. The dream itself had that very unpleasant feeling of no characteristics but a sense of constant foreboding like one of the Fellini movies about various empty-headed partying in Italy in the fifties all ending up in some symbolic disaster without any real drama being seen. The poster was far older in style, like from the forties or thirties, drawn and painted, it was not a photograph.
SR's reply, there's no doubt that Trump has recently started plastering the cyberworld with innocuous, old-fashioned-looking posters, though I haven't heard he's going the more expensive route of having his people put up large numbers of paper posters. And of course there's now a world-wide media and Internet alert warning Americans to be careful about believing or trusting Trump, and the IC is putting a lot of effort into sending the same message from Other Side, which includes creating that feeling of forboding in a lot of people's minds. However, I can't imagine Trump or his staff making an effort to promote him in any way outside the USA, because this wouldn't increase his chances of getting elected. And my best guess at this point is that both dreams are intended to send the message that Trump doesn't intend to actually perform the duties of POTUS if elected, but will soon resign in favor of Pence, who is a typical conservative Republican who endorses the socially conservative right-wing agenda described in the official GOP platform. And I also won't venture a guess right now what Trump and his staff really think his odds of getting elected are. They talk openly as all political campaigns do that he's likely to win, but the actual staistics so far make it look highly unlikely that he can get enough Electoral College votes to win unless he can get a majority in almost all of the states that are now marked as "battleground". My Guides have just asked me to start putting a real effort on Twitter and the Web in general to get people to the polls in November who are likely to vote for the Demos in both the Presidential and Congressional races, though which I assume means they expect a very close race like the one in 2000.
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5PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:36 pm

We should have a party like the "Dogs with two tails Party" in Hungary, placing people like "John Lennon for President" on the poster... with captions like
"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You..."
or "Siouxshee from the Banshees" for President
caption>
"But oh your city lies in dust, my friend
Hot and burning in your nostrils
Pouring down your gaping mouth
Your molten bodies blanket of cinders
Caught in the throes
And your city lies in dust"
"It"s Climate change, stupid!"

This latter one could really catch on in California like wildfire... sorry for the pun.
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6PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:31 am

regmelocco wrote:
We should have a party like the "Dogs with two tails Party" in Hungary, placing people like "John Lennon for President" on the poster... with captions like
"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You..."
or "Siouxshee from the Banshees" for President
caption>
"But oh your city lies in dust, my friend
Hot and burning in your nostrils
Pouring down your gaping mouth
Your molten bodies blanket of cinders
Caught in the throes
And your city lies in dust"
"It"s Climate change, stupid!"

This latter one could really catch on in California like wildfire... sorry for the pun.

From what I've read of your postings over the last few years on this and other boards, Hungary has been living in such a world for a long time: a piece of performance art that's simultaneously low comedy and high tragedy. And since Trump started running for POTUS, this country has shown signs of drifting in the same direction. It used to be that the American Nightmare was our country ending up like the societies shown in "Brave New World" or "1984", but now it's almost like we're going in the opposite direction: trying to dismantle a near-utopia by creating internal strife for all sorts of illogical reasons.

I'm hoping that Donald Trump the phony right-wing populist and the real ultraconservatives that are riding on his coat tails will get trounced at the polls in November, ending up with Clinton in the White House essentially trying to continue Obama's policies and the Democrats regaining control of both the House and Senate. However, while it looks to me like the former is looking more and more likely, I won't even venture a guess about the latter. Nor do I have any idea what another four years like the last four ouldl do to the country on the economic level, though I assume social progress would continue.
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7PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:23 am

Yes... madness has taken this place, haunting a near-utopia in the New World.
My relatives (who are personally very honest and helpful with my daughter and some other ways) go even as far as saying that if Clinton gets elected (most days screening the news I end up thinking that is more likely) they would leave the country.
It is difficult to imagine such an artificial demonization as what goes on now against Mrs. Clinton. Sure she as well as the whole elite establishment have their faults but luckily she is not a very macho phenomenon adding personal flak to the office. It would be more difficult to demonize such a person but nevertheless the populist conservatives have a try.
Ms. Merkel is similar - I even mostly applaud what she does or says though no doubt I would favor a more active social justice system.
Frankly, it is difficult to generate real hatred against either of these women politicians. Which is not bad... as both of them are better and more intelligent than alternatives to the right called "charismatic".

One question I am trying to address behind the scenes of many threads is why this radical shift to the right among so many people... what we experienced in Hungary the world should NOT experience but many forces are driving towards that end... Let us hope that Trump will indeed lead to the splitting and the partial discrediting of these ultra-rightists who are nothing like the old conservatives or libertarians I got to know personally.

Please see more in my recent topic "Demonic."
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8PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Sun Aug 07, 2016 12:32 pm

reg, #7 re: "Yes... madness has taken this place, haunting a near-utopia in the New World. My relatives (who are personally very honest and helpful with my daughter and some other ways) go even as far as saying that if Clinton gets elected (most days screening the news I end up thinking that is more likely) they would leave the country. It is difficult to imagine such an artificial demonization as what goes on now against Mrs. Clinton. Sure she as well as the whole elite establishment have their faults but luckily she is not a very macho phenomenon adding personal flak to the office. It would be more difficult to demonize such a person but nevertheless the populist conservatives have a try. Ms. Merkel is similar - I even mostly applaud what she does or says though no doubt I would favor a more active social justice system. Frankly, it is difficult to generate real hatred against either of these women politicians. Which is not bad... as both of them are better and more intelligent than alternatives to the right commonly called 'charismatic'."
RR replies: IMO, the epidemic of extreme demonization of political opponents that's been occurring over the last few years in a number of Western democracies has mostly been generated by the "War on Terrorism" and the world-wide climate of fear that it's created. And of course, once politicians resort to such tactics, it's natural to drag in appeals to sexism, racism, xenophobia, etc.

re: "One question I am trying to address behind the scenes of many threads is why this radical shift to the right among so many people... what we experienced in Hungary the world should NOT experience but many forces are driving towards that end... Let us hope that Trump will indeed lead to the splitting and the partial discrediting of these ultra-rightists who are nothing like the old conservatives or libertarians I got to know personally."
RR replies: IMO, these shifts aren't to the right so much as to extremism over moderation and usually involve people who are trying to practice fascism and label it conservatism or libertarianism. The Hungarians you complain about definitely seem to be in that category, as does the Trump movement here, and most likely a lot of other movements I know less about in other countries.
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9PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: RR replies: "IMO, these shifts aren't to the right so much as to extremism over moderation and usually involve people who are trying to practice fascism and label it conservatism or libertarianism. The Hungarians you complain about definitely seem to be in that category, as does the Trump movement here, and most likely a lot of other movements I know less about in other countries."

The question we freethinkers pose is whether this type of fascism will have a significant impact on the world. Rationally, two or three major factors are behind it, and no doubt there are two or three scenarios.
Factor 1 is the globalization of enterprise without globalization of labor movements, which is what most poor swings the votes of poor working class voters to a majority. Obviously, this happened in all of Eastern Europe, with the Russian regime playing an important part.
Factor 2 is global warming which has become catastrophic. It prompted a renewed search for non-oil technologies and even our backwards state starts to sponsor sun collectors to their client companies recently. But one important fact remains: the climate played a big part in the Syrian uprising, and in the lives of many who start out from Africa directly - Mali and other Black African countries stream people through what was once Libya - this has been growing for decades but Libyan dictator Gaddhafi practically played a stopping plug for a while. Now studies say that in ten to twenty years parts of the Middle East will also be uninhabitable. People from richer countries try to switch from oil desperately which bring oil prices down which causes a deflation of oil-based economies such a Nigeria, Russia and Venezuela (the dictatorship there obviously does not help the case either). It's a mystery why people stream from Pakistan which is a non-tropical planet and allegedly an ally of the West. Islamic extremism and other forms of dictatorship are the answer in many places to the shrinking economy.
Factor 3 is the trickle-down neoliberal or market fundamentalist attitudes of the West, with clear disctinction of the second-rate countries and groups and the third-rate groups such as China. But the most obvious problem is the unbelievable concentration of wealth and the exclusion of great masses from everyday life.

Trump-style movements capitalize on all this. Eastern Europe seems to waver between a Putin and a Trump sympathy - both would be bad for the region and they are very much present, far more than the proponents of civil democracy would like.

Here is an excellent long analysis (pdf) by the still existing Political Capital institute in English about Russian soft power.

Political Capital analysis (English pdf)

Now, the first and second factor would only lead to isolationism of operative and non-operative societies. China would split into two: the richer coastal regions and industrial cities versus the poor country inner parts. With sizeable Uyghur (Mongolian-Turkish type) Muslim minority on the poor Northeast, they will not escape conflict either.

If the third factor is not eased a bit, a world war is inevitable because the majority of people would want other masses excluded or even annihilated - or living in colonial conditions, and this includes citizens of their own countries. Although Trump is more isolationalist in foreign policy (as was Bernie), this structure does not promise a peaceful transition.

If Clinton is elected, world war may be averted but it is far from certain. Read what the Russians and now Erdogan and many allies want and see if it could be averted. Erdogan can flood Europe with literally tens of millions of refugees and has great conflicts with NATO presently. Like it or not, the EU is the largest trading partner of the USA - its going under Russian soft or partially hard control is a nightmare to all.
Israel is full of aliya from Russia and Ukraine - Russian is now spoken in more places than Hebrew.

The result could be a confrontation where the US and Israel are on one side, Putin, Iran and Turkey on another one, while Arab Islam has its own third front.
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10PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:39 pm


reg, #9:

RR said: IMO, these shifts aren't to the right so much as to extremism over moderation and usually involve people who are trying to practice fascism and label it conservatism or libertarianism. The Hungarians you complain about definitely seem to be in that category, as does the Trump movement here, and most likely a lot of other movements I know less about in other countries.
reg replied: The question we freethinkers pose is whether this type of fascism will have a significant impact on the world. Rationally, two or three major factors are behind it, and no doubt there are two or three scenarios. Factor 1 is the globalization of enterprise without globalization of labor movements, which is what most poor swings the votes of poor working class voters to a majority. Obviously, this happened in all of Eastern Europe, with the Russian regime playing an important part.
RR's response: IMO, it's important to realize that this factor was paramount in the rise of Fascism in Germany, Italy, and Japan during the Thirties but Western capitalists today and the governments behind them seem to have forgotten this.
reg said: Factor 2 is global warming which has become catastrophic. It prompted a renewed search for non-oil technologies and even our backwards state starts to sponsor sun collectors to their client companies recently. But one important fact remains: the climate played a big part in the Syrian uprising, and in the lives of many who start out from Africa directly - Mali and other Black African countries stream people through what was once Libya - this has been growing for decades but Libyan dictator Gaddhafi practically played a stopping plug for a while. Now studies say that in ten to twenty years parts of the Middle East will also be uninhabitable. People from richer countries try to switch from oil desperately which bring oil prices down which causes a deflation of oil-based economies such a Nigeria, Russia and Venezuela (the dictatorship there obviously does not help the case either). It's a mystery why people stream from Pakistan which is a non-tropical planet and allegedly an ally of the West. Islamic extremism and other forms of dictatorship are the answer in many places to the shrinking economy.
RR's response: It looks to me like both businesses and governments all over the world talk a lot about the impact of climate change on the economic sphere, but so far, absolutely nobody has been able to relate to this constructively, even though I'm sure it could be done. By "constructively", I mean adjusting production and distribution to actual climatic conditions so an area's total wealth is increased rather than decreased. My Guides say this has been done on world's that became truely civilizated and are hoping it will begin here soon.
reg said: Factor 3 is the trickle-down neoliberal or market fundamentalist attitudes of the West, with clear disctinction of the second-rate countries and groups and the third-rate groups such as China. But the most obvious problem is the unbelievable concentration of wealth and the exclusion of great masses from everyday life.
RR's response: My Guides say that if Western countries, especially in the EU and former British Empire can redistribute wealth in ways that generate economic democracy within a market system, they can spread it to the countries you just mentioned ... with the USA, Russian, China, and India hopefully being drawn in later.
reg said: Trump-style movements capitalize on all this. Eastern Europe seems to waver between a Putin and a Trump sympathy - both would be bad for the region and they are very much present, far more than the proponents of civil democracy would like.
RR's response: IMO, neither Trump nor Putin have a well-organized game plan on either the fiscal or political level. This is why they are apparently getting together in secret and trying to figure out what to do next, but my Guides say their minds aren't open enough to consider the actual solutions, which I described above.
reg said: Here is an excellent long analysis (pdf) by the still existing Political Capital institute in English about Russian soft power. Political Capital analysis (English pdf)
RR's response: I glanced at this but decided not to spend a lot of time on it, because it's obvious to me that the Putinist politco-economic experts haven't learned anything beyond what their Soviet equivalents knew decades ago. This failure to understand Western civilization caused the fall of the USSR, and the same will happen even more quickly today.
reg said: Now, the first and second factor would only lead to isolationism of operative and non-operative societies. China would split into two: the richer coastal regions and industrial cities versus the poor country inner parts. With sizeable Uyghur (Mongolian-Turkish type) Muslim minority on the poor Northeast, they will not escape conflict either.
RR's response: It looks like this is already happening in some countries, though I've seen no clear signs China is moving in the directions you described.
reg said: If the third factor is not eased a bit, a world war is inevitable because the majority of people would want other masses excluded or even annihilated - or living in colonial conditions, and this includes citizens of their own countries. Although Trump is more isolationalist in foreign policy (as was Bernie), this structure does not promise a peaceful transition.If Clinton is elected, world war may be averted but it is far from certain. Read what the Russians and now Erdogan and many allies want and see if it could be averted. Erdogan can flood Europe with literally tens of millions of refugees and has great conflicts with NATO presently. Like it or not, the EU is the largest trading partner of the USA - its going under Russian soft or partially hard control is a nightmare to all.
Israel is full of aliya from Russia and Ukraine - Russian is now spoken in more places than Hebrew. The result could be a confrontation where the US and Israel are on one side, Putin, Iran and Turkey on another one, while Arab Islam has its own third front.
RR's response: I (and the IC) are almost certain now that Putin will self-destruct soon and even if he doesn't, Clinton will be elected in a landslide that will put "liberalism" back on the map world wide, big time. And they say that world war is unlikely because US military technology is a lot more advanced than most people realized, meaning neither the Russians nor the Chinese can win a non-nuclear conventional war ... and both nations know that "somebody" is capable of preventing a nuclear bomb from fully exploding, so nuclear war is a very iffy proposition. So we do indeed live in "interesting times" as the ancient Chinese put, and even the IC doesn't know what is going to happen over the next few years.
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11PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:22 am

Some of the things in your reply to my #9 are very important feedback from the world beyond and from the summary of what we know at the Earth level, and I am trying not to lose hope over here... I am a typical Western-oriented intellectual of Eastern Europe who should be allowed to live in his place and say things freely or travel or leave, but not because of collective tyranny or human catastrophes, but rather voluntary choice.

If the Democratic side wins the US elections, which I think is more likely day by day, that will be perhaps the single most serious thorn in the side of the tyrants and the start of a great historical shift towards humanism. The paper I cited is lengthy and repetitive, but it makes the point that the Byzantine side relies far more on soft power - perhaps because as you say, in real military terms they cannot challenge the US and its true allies. What is probably news to many critically thinking Western citizens is how much the inheritors of the former KGB actually head the efforts of anti-Western propaganda and movements, including some reactionary movements in the West.

The Byzantine leaders just do not get what is good about Western civilization beyond mere technology and comfort. They just do not understand it, as you said, to sum up many arguments. It is odd that the Yogic thinker I quoted about Yogic ages earlier - Sri Yukteswar - did not make this mistake, although at the time India was still facing its independence movement with some falling to the trap of nationalism. (Yet I think it is a prime historical example remaining to this day and beyond how Mahatma Gandhi managed to achieve independence).

Clinton herself made a point about a year ago that we were (meaning the Democratic side of the Western world) behind in the propaganda war. Perhaps we are catching up, as the very existence of the cited paper shows. One of the corollaries of the study is that Putin is trying to position himself as the leader of the traditionalist worldview, as well as the "Eurasian world order," calling in the triple icons of God, Family and Fatherland. As the study sceptically concludes (and the same is true about our PM), what he really is is a kleptocrat. Russian families with children are neither growing or better off under his dictatorship. The study also warns the enemies of this dictatorship and its soft power operations that it is vitally important to distinguish between Russians as a people, including the sizeable ethnic minorities in other countries, and people who cooperate with the present system or who propagate it.

One thing I left unmentioned - though you studied it at length in War in Heaven and in your online postings - is how effective the humanistic propaganda is at other levels though. Luckily, straight political writing and news are not the only means to influence people's thinking. And the US and its related cultures are not only leaders in military and business terms presently, it would be a giant mistake to leave out the effect of media like TV shows, films and games etc. While no doubt there are some you or I would not want to experience, and I have serious doubts about the relevance of the Disney phenomenon, younger generations are exposed to shows everyday which evidence that neither nationalism or fundamentalist violence would be attractive alternatives. Whether we like it or not, young people will watch shows, films and listen to music - you cannot have a bunch of technophobe Amish in the heart of Europe. As soon as you speak some English and as soon as you are on the Net (and even a city grocery store or a doctor's office cannot operate these days without it, even in Eastern Europe), you have a choice where you will compete openly for young people's attention.

Certainly, some very traditional stuff actually makes it through the free choice of open competition - e.g. Japanese martial arts, Russian church choirs or Jewish shofar blowing - and I would be the first one to celebrate diversity in food, customs and other things. "Friends" may be not at the level of War and Peace (though who knows in the end), but people can identify with the actors and actresses and the themes. Tyrants typically have no sense of humor (and they are lousy at language learning...) Dugin (Putin's chief ideologue) would have to come up at least to that level to really be able to compete with those "decadent Western values"...
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12PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:11 pm

reg, #11:

reg said: Some of the things in your reply to my #9 are very important feedback from the world beyond and from the summary of what we know at the Earth level, and I am trying not to lose hope over here... I am a typical Western-oriented intellectual of Eastern Europe who should be allowed to live in his place and say things freely or travel or leave, but not because of collective tyranny or human catastrophes, but rather voluntary choice.
RR's response: At this point, my Guides won't venture even a wild guess about what will happen in Hungary and the rest of Eastern Europe over the next year or so because events there are being influenced by a myriad of events taking place in real time all over the world.
reg said: If the Democratic side wins the US elections, which I think is more likely day by day, that will be perhaps the single most serious thorn in the side of the tyrants and the start of a great historical shift towards humanism. The paper I cited is lengthy and repetitive, but it makes the point that the Byzantine side relies far more on soft power - perhaps because as you say, in real military terms they cannot challenge the US and its true allies. What is probably news to many critically thinking Western citizens is how much the inheritors of the former KGB actually head the efforts of anti-Western propaganda and movements, including some reactionary movements in the West.
RR's response: I agree with everything you just said, and ironically enough, an announcement just released here by a whole bunch of former US intelligence officials has sent bluntly that electing Donald Trump President would be very dangerous to national security. And Trump responded with, "These people know I would fire all of them if elected, and are acting in their own self interest."
reg said: The Byzantine leaders just do not get what is good about Western civilization beyond mere technology and comfort. They just do not understand it, as you said, to sum up many arguments. It is odd that the Yogic thinker I quoted about Yogic ages earlier - Sri Yukteswar - did not make this mistake, although at the time India was still facing its independence movement with some falling to the trap of nationalism. (Yet I think it is a prime historical example remaining to this day and beyond how Mahatma Gandhi managed to achieve independence).
RR's response: Are you aware that the main reasons Britain granted independence to India soon after WW2 were almost completely economic, not political, and had almost nothing to do with Gandhi's movement? What happened was that the Labour Party won control of the British government, tossed Churchill out, and made quiet agreements with the USA and the other Western Allies to allow free trade all over Asia in turn for not demanding prompt repayment of Britain's massive war debts.
reg said: Clinton herself made a point about a year ago that we were (meaning the Democratic side of the Western world) behind in the propaganda war. Perhaps we are catching up, as the very existence of the cited paper shows. One of the corollaries of the study is that Putin is trying to position himself as the leader of the traditionalist worldview, as well as the "Eurasian world order," calling in the triple icons of God, Family and Fatherland. As the study sceptically concludes (and the same is true about our PM), what he really is is a kleptocrat. Russian families with children are neither growing or better off under his dictatorship. The study also warns the enemies of this dictatorship and its soft power operations that it is vitally important to distinguish between Russians as a people, including the sizeable ethnic minorities in other countries, and people who cooperate with the present system or who propagate it.
RR's response: This is well known by intelligence experts and political theoreticians in the USA and other Western countries, but doesn't get much media coverage, simpltybecause the majority of the population doesn't possess enough backround knowledge to understand it.
re said: One thing I left unmentioned - though you studied it at length in War in Heaven and in your online postings - is how effective the humanistic propaganda is at other levels though. Luckily, straight political writing and news are not the only means to influence people's thinking. And the US and its related cultures are not only leaders in military and business terms presently, it would be a giant mistake to leave out the effect of media like TV shows, films and games etc. While no doubt there are some you or I would not want to experience, and I have serious doubts about the relevance of the Disney phenomenon, younger generations are exposed to shows everyday which evidence that neither nationalism or fundamentalist violence would be attractive alternatives. Whether we like it or not, young people will watch shows, films and listen to music - you cannot have a bunch of technophobe Amish in the heart of Europe. As soon as you speak some English and as soon as you are on the Net (and even a city grocery store or a doctor's office cannot operate these days without it, even in Eastern Europe), you have a choice where you will compete openly for young people's attention.
RR's response: Another irony is that very similar things are going on here in the USA and in most of the other Western democracies, including the UK and the Western part of the EU. The people who are now growing up in the Information Age are qualitatively different in personality structures and background information from their elders, and it looks to me like the political and economic Powers That Be yet understand them well enough to relate to them constructively.
reg said: Certainly, some very traditional stuff actually makes it through the free choice of open competition - e.g. Japanese martial arts, Russian church choirs or Jewish shofar blowing - and I would be the first one to celebrate diversity in food, customs and other things. "Friends" may be not at the level of "War and Peace" (though who knows in the end), but people can identify with the actors and actresses and the themes. Tyrants typically have no sense of humor (and they are lousy at language learning...) Dugin (Putin's chief ideologue) would have to come up at least to that level to really be able to compete with those "decadent Western values"...
SR's response: Yes! The same factors that are operating today in both the Western Democracies and in Russia today were actually described in "War and Peace" and similar literature of the 19th century, and in a lot of American, British, and Western European fiction from the same period. Tyrants and their supporters do indeed have the weaknesses you described, and their enemies don't hesitate to take advantage of them to advance those "decadent Western values" that are actually the heart and soul of Western Civilization.
(And are also the core values of advanced ET cultures the Invisible College represents.)
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13PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:08 am

As the weeks advance, I see more and more of the self-destruct behavior in all three of these demonic politicians - Trump and Orban in particular. There is no need to digress here on the Russian connections of Mr. Trump and his campaign manager, Paul Manafort, the New York Times described these in the past few days in enough detail. An electoral loss or Trump stepping out of the campaign in the last minute could contribute to the downfall of several of these macho tyrants, however, all these places must be recultivated in a non-mafia paradigm, which is a far harder task (with battles fought in the form of legal and other forums, not by weapons of war or terror) than toppling charismatic, populist right-wing leaders.

The only thing I can add here - which was discussed in another thread - is that Erdogan also joined the crew, again something which was only a dark suspicion for a while but which is a certainty today (after his visit to Russia soon after the coup), and let me remind you that Orban was the only elected country leader in office so far who openly endorsed Trump in public speeches and declared that Clinton would be a disaster for Europe (surely for his vision of a Byzantine Europe controlled from Ankara and Moscow, it would be one, but not for my vision of Europe). Orban is now officially preparing his visit to Ankara (the Foreign Ministry is making official preparations), while a state visit is being prepared here for Mr. Erdogan later on in September.

The leaders of the Turkish cultural institute here - who officially have nothing to do with day-to-day politics - have been recalled from Hungary for a consultation lasting for several days. No doubt they will all be screened or new cadres will be appointed, fiercely loyal to Mr. E. I did a minor translation recently for a private individual who described her affinity to Turkish culture (having some Turkish ancetsry as well), but the managers who were backing the project - started before the failed coup and the rapprochement of Erdogan to Putin - are suddenly unavailable, all of them being recalled to Turkey for a reevaluation of cultural policies. (How much can you redesign about cultural stuff like playing the ney flute or the history of Turkish baths - remains a mystery to me.)

All the while, Erdogan is trying to force the Hungarian government to close a Turkish-run international high school with about 500 students - mainly for the Gülenist ties of some teachers and the organization itself. The school mainly has Hungarian and Chinese students, and a few Turkish ones from families who live there, with Hungarian and English being the two languages of education, and Turkish language being offered as a free elective, and some opportunities to study about Islam with an emphasis on the Turkish cultural ties rather than the faith itself.

Erdogan could simply have taken over the school by affirming closer and closer ties to the Turkish cultural institute but he decided to make a gesture... closing over the last week of summer is going to be a difficult thing due to Hungarian bureaucracy, with registered students having nowhere to go. This won't go down well with Hungary now - no doubt that will be one of the main topics of the state visits planned.

The nukes from the US base in Turkey - Incirlik - are being relocated to neighboring Romania now. The base was closed by the military after the failed coup and the US appears to have lost its patience.

An East-West confrontation is being prepared in Europe and the neighboring parts of the globe. I am saying this in terms of the Byzantine Russian-Turkish paradigm (fully aware of the fact that these two powers have vastly conflicting interests being actively pursued in Syria) versus the Enlightenment values we mentioned above. The confrontation is not necessarily a hot war - though in several countries, such as Syria and Iraq, war is basically an ongoing affair now. From computer viruses and spying to manipulating the refugee regulations, economic threats and media warfare, enough is going on to say that this is a major conflict already ongoing now in the heart of the civilized world, with hundreds of thousands of people suffering and tens of millions bearing the cost.

Serbia recently rescheduled its national holiday to please the Russian regime... funny.

As many critics of the authoritative dictatorial regimes of Putin and the like point out, however, the real enemy is the "systema" (from the Russian word). One can only hope that the dependence on foreign oil and gas is cut day by day so the economics behind these dark reactionary forces is going down (including Saudi Arabia where I would never even travel under the present circumstances).

In contrast, I read an article on the past of Mrs. Clinton, her difficult years after her husband was not reelected in their home state, and the principles she distilled from those years, and the article actually filled me with good feelings and nostalgia. I think not only she is the default choice for POTUS, I also feel that she has far more understanding towards people who are struggling with financial and job situations than most other politicians of the US elite.
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14PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:11 pm

reg, #13:

reg said: As the weeks advance, I see more and more of the self-destruct behavior in all three of these demonic politicians - Trump and Orban in particular. There is no need to digress here on the Russian connections of Mr. Trump and his campaign manager, Paul Manafort, the New York Times described these in the past few days in enough detail. An electoral loss or Trump stepping out of the campaign in the last minute could contribute to the downfall of several of these macho tyrants, however, all these places must be recultivated in a non-mafia paradigm, which is a far harder task (with battles fought in the form of legal and other forums, not by weapons of war or terror) than toppling charismatic, populist right-wing leaders.
RR's response: My guess at the moment is that Trump's actual net worth is negative and he only turned to politics in hopes of avoiding having to pay the piper. And I also see him as part of an international organized criminal syndicate that has received almost no public exposure in the USA. However, I haven't the slightest idea what will happen if he loses the election, which IMO isn't as certain as most progressive-minded Americans are now beginning to believe. The same plutorats who support Trump also own practically all of the mass media.

reg said: The only thing I can add here - which was discussed in another thread - is that Erdogan also joined the crew, again something which was only a dark suspicion for a while but which is a certainty today (after his visit to Russia soon after the coup), and let me remind you that Orban was the only elected country leader in office so far who openly endorsed Trump in public speeches and declared that Clinton would be a disaster for Europe (surely for his vision of a Byzantine Europe controlled from Ankara and Moscow, it would be one, but not for my vision of Europe). Orban is now officially preparing his visit to Ankara (the Foreign Ministry is making official preparations), while a state visit is being prepared here for Mr. Erdogan later on in September.
RR's response: One question that keeps popping into my mind as I read about all this is: "What is the bottom line on the economic level?" I don't know what the actual economic situation in Turkey is right now, but it looks to me like none of the other countries you just mentioned are doing very well compared to the heartland of the EU and other advanced economies all over the world.

reg said: The leaders of the Turkish cultural institute here - who officially have nothing to do with day-to-day politics - have been recalled from Hungary for a consultation lasting for several days. No doubt they will all be screened or new cadres will be appointed, fiercely loyal to Mr. E. I did a minor translation recently for a private individual who described her affinity to Turkish culture (having some Turkish ancetsry as well), but the managers who were backing the project - started before the failed coup and the rapprochement of Erdogan to Putin - are suddenly unavailable, all of them being recalled to Turkey for a reevaluation of cultural policies. (How much can you redesign about cultural stuff like playing the ney flute or the history of Turkish baths - remains a mystery to me.)
RR's response: Cultural relations with other nations here in the USA have always been almost completely privatized, and it looks to like having the government heavily involved actually means that "there's no there there".

reg said: All the while, Erdogan is trying to force the Hungarian government to close a Turkish-run international high school with about 500 students - mainly for the Gülenist ties of some teachers and the organization itself. The school mainly has Hungarian and Chinese students, and a few Turkish ones from families who live there, with Hungarian and English being the two languages of education, and Turkish language being offered as a free elective, and some opportunities to study about Islam with an emphasis on the Turkish cultural ties rather than the faith itself ... Erdogan could simply have taken over the school by affirming closer and closer ties to the Turkish cultural institute but he decided to make a gesture... closing over the last week of summer is going to be a difficult thing due to Hungarian bureaucracy, with registered students having nowhere to go. This won't go down well with Hungary now - no doubt that will be one of the main topics of the state visits planned.
RR's reponse: This seems utterly bizarre and fascistic to me, because people here in US can run just about any kinds of school they want and in most cases get government financing of one kind or another. I assume you feel the same after having lived here, and will either come back to this country eventually or Eastern Europe will end up with laws similar to those in Germany and France.

reg said: The nukes from the US base in Turkey - Incirlik - are being relocated to neighboring Romania now. The base was closed by the military after the failed coup and the US appears to have lost its patience.
RR's response: I know this was discussed but not that it's actually been done. It should have received massive media attention, but it apparently got almost none. And I don't remember it being mentioned on social media political discussion forums, either, probably because there was little controversy over it.

reg said: An East-West confrontation is being prepared in Europe and the neighboring parts of the globe. I am saying this in terms of the Byzantine Russian-Turkish paradigm (fully aware of the fact that these two powers have vastly conflicting interests being actively pursued in Syria) versus the Enlightenment values we mentioned above. The confrontation is not necessarily a hot war - though in several countries, such as Syria and Iraq, war is basically an ongoing affair now. From computer viruses and spying to manipulating the refugee regulations, economic threats and media warfare, enough is going on to say that this is a major conflict already ongoing now in the heart of the civilized world, with hundreds of thousands of people suffering and tens of millions bearing the cost ... Serbia recently rescheduled its national holiday to please the Russian regime... funny ... As many critics of the authoritative dictatorial regimes of Putin and the like point out, however, the real enemy is the "systema" (from the Russian word). One can only hope that the dependence on foreign oil and gas is cut day by day so the economics behind these dark reactionary forces is going down (including Saudi Arabia where I would never even travel under the present circumstances).
RR's response: IMO, two events in the West are going to have a major impact on the struggles you mentioned. The obvious one, of course, is who gets elected POTUS this november. I'm sure Clinton will support the mainstream of the EU and the Enlightenment values, but if Trump gets in, it's easy for me to imagine him trying to support Russia imitating the USSR and the USA becoming a massively expoitative colonial power ... which it's often been accused of (by me in my younger days, among other people) but never really has been. I won't speculate more about this now, because we're going find out in less than three months.

reg said: In contrast, I read an article on the past of Mrs. Clinton, her difficult years after her husband was not reelected in their home state, and the principles she distilled from those years, and the article actually filled me with good feelings and nostalgia. I think not only she is the default choice for POTUS, I also feel that she has far more understanding towards people who are struggling with financial and job situations than most other politicians of the US elite.
RR said: It's common for American liberals and leftists to criticize Hillary, but IMO, she'll make a better President if elected than either her husband or Barack Obama. And of course I'm working like hell on Twitter and other places on line to get her elected.
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15PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:20 am

As always, I re-read your responses and find many interesting perceptions and evaluations...
The international organized crime syndicate behind Trumpo, in the first point, seems to exist, and at some levels it is far more manifest than we thought - it is odd how the resigned campaign manager of Trump had been connected to the puppet ruler of the Russian regime in Ukraine (Yanukovich), for example. In a country where retirement benefits are around one hundred dollars, this dictator fashioned a palace for himself with toilets made with precious metals.

Other times, such rhymes are merely a sympathy - but one very important at the spiritual-political level. For example, Orban and Berlusconi seemed to have a very good understanding but I don't think the three major Italian mafia groups had a definitive effect on local politics in Eastern Europe to be uncovered later, it was rather a model and an open sympathy. One thing these guys seem to have in common is the corrupt Godfather mentality, an aggressively macho mindset, and using virulent nationalism and an "us versus them" type of mechanistical adherence to local traditions as the magic pill to put the masses to sleep. Brexit gives a headache to the Brits, the Irish and Europe in general though, and they would like to delay and soften the consequences as much as possible, and the charismatic right wing politican Johnson (who definitely rhymes with Trump, not only in hairstyle) resigned after the vote. Which shows how much of a farce it has been all along.

#In your reply to the point last but one, the election of the POTUS is one point in the West you brought up that will influence the fate of these countries, but neglected to mention the second one, I am still interested in reading it.
#Point number one: I am surprised that Trump does not stand so certain to losing (or resigning) in your evaluation (and I am sure you follow this closely every day outside and in mediumistic ways) as most progressive people in America would think... But perhaps this is connected to the mob syndicate mentioned in your earlier reply. From the outside, and according to mainstream analysts here, he does appear likely to lose, my only speculation is that the syndicate and the spirits connected to it are going to play the Muslim card again. And world politics (or "foreign politics" in the terminology of some US journalists) may be decisive playing on people's fears should anything major happen in the next three months in the Western world, particularly in the English-speaking part. At least we got through the Olympics without any major provocation...

I don't think that Trump could manifestly engineer what they call a "false flag event," but the powers and sympathies closely allied to his will no doubt try their best. Hungary seems to be some sort of test tube where the likes of Arthur Finkelstein experiment with their wildest theories, and we are facing a national referendum on October 2 which sounds anti-EU in its wording and plays upon the racist fears against Middle Eastern refugees.

Which leads me back to Turkey. Erdogan is cancelling his visit here but the Foreign Minister of Hungary is the first state leader to visit him after the failed coup soon. Erdogan is openly dissatisfied with the moneys coming from the EU and the lack of assurances to issue EU visas to Turkish citizens without any further ado.

What he can do is make the lives of millions of refugees there so bitter that they would risk their lives to get to the EU - his wording has been literally that he would "flood Europe with millions of refugees" if it does not do what Turkey (read: he himself) wants the EU to do. That would no doubt lead to incidents and not only the temporary strengthening of Eastern European fascists, but also to chaos and barbed fences and ethinc tensions in the Western part - which could lead many wavering Americans to the conclusion that the anti-Muslim card Trump is ready to play is after all more important than his defects - the coordinated response of these powers in cahoots (sometimes spiritually, but sometimes manifestly) could appear to some simpler mindsets grown on conspiracy theory as if Trump would have some wonderful intuition. Which is another way of saying that this is a war for attention, and Trump has no doubt been good at that as a TV host.

However, the US is no sitting duck and the information warfare is two-sided - should more negative stuff turn out about Erdogan, such as his state's happy oil cooperation with Daesh or murdering a prominent Gülenist abroad, the tides of Western public opinion may turn.

BTW Gülen is actually a very decent fellow, it seems one of his main tenets is that religion should be separated from the state and secular powers. Thereby he ideologically positions himself as a centrist within Turkey and within the islamic world - Erdogan openly prefers theocracy. Investigative journalists here interviewed a Christian interfaith supporter of his school today, and it turns out there is not even an umbrella organization to point at which would provide either funds or ideology to this network of schools around the world (allegedly in 170 countries). Turkish citizens here, on the other hand, are afraid to visit their home country because passports are confiscated on the border of Turkey from people who are allegedly "Gülenist."

Another point - where Erdogan's policies stand on the losing side is that all around the world, schools allied to Gülen's ideas prefer English language education as early as possible, with examinations already by the end of eighth grade, high-level examinations and very good literacy in English by the age of 18.
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16PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:54 am

One more attribute I read about the so-called Gülenists is that they always encourage several points of view in any debate, in school or in the media. This was the official policy of a major paper in Turkey recently banned by Erdogan.
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17PostSubject: Re: Clinton, Trump, Orban and Europe   Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:15 am

reg, #15:

reg said: The international organized crime syndicate behind Trumpo, in the first point, seems to exist, and at some levels it is far more manifest than we thought - it is odd how the resigned campaign manager of Trump had been connected to the puppet ruler of the Russian regime in Ukraine (Yanukovich), for example. In a country where retirement benefits are around one hundred dollars, this dictator fashioned a palace for himself with toilets made with precious metals. Other times, such rhymes are merely a sympathy - but one very important at the spiritual-political level. For example, Orban and Berlusconi seemed to have a very good understanding but I don't think the three major Italian mafia groups had a definitive effect on local politics in Eastern Europe to be uncovered later, it was rather a model and an open sympathy. One thing these guys seem to have in common is the corrupt Godfather mentality, an aggressively macho mindset, and using virulent nationalism and an "us versus them" type of mechanistical adherence to local traditions as the magic pill to put the masses to sleep. Brexit gives a headache to the Brits, the Irish and Europe in general though, and they would like to delay and soften the consequences as much as possible, and the charismatic right wing politican Johnson (who definitely rhymes with Trump, not only in hairstyle) resigned after the vote. Which shows how much of a farce it has been all along.
RR's response: Everything you just said sounds sensible, but I keep getting the impression that things are going to start happening soon in both Eastern and Western Europe that will make most of the points you mentioned moot, things related to the aftermath of the November election in the USA. It now looks like either conservativism or liberalism in this country is going to be destroyed as a major politico-economic factor. And IMO, if this happens, Putin might start acting like a new Stalin and try to create a new Empire similar to the Soviet Union. I have no idea how the EU and UK would react to this, so I won't even venture a guess about what would happen after that.

reg said: In your reply to the point last but one, the election of the POTUS is one point in the West you brought up that will influence the fate of these countries, but neglected to mention the second one, I am still interested in reading it.
#Point number one: I am surprised that Trump does not stand so certain to losing (or resigning) in your evaluation (and I am sure you follow this closely every day outside and in mediumistic ways) as most progressive people in America would think... But perhaps this is connected to the mob syndicate mentioned in your earlier reply. From the outside, and according to mainstream analysts here, he does appear likely to lose, my only speculation is that the syndicate and the spirits connected to it are going to play the Muslim card again. And world politics (or "foreign politics" in the terminology of some US journalists) may be decisive playing on people's fears should anything major happen in the next three months in the Western world, particularly in the English-speaking part. At least we got through the Olympics without any major provocation...
RR's response: Over the last few days, Donald Trump has done two of the most bizarre things I've ever seen a candidate for political office do. One is to pack his staff with people representing a tiny and virtually powerless ideology in this country: out-and-out rascists and believers in wild conspiracy theories, and the other is to start making major changes in his stands on immigration, race relations, and the like which contradict the ideologies of the people he's just invited to join his team. This has caused the plutocrat-owned mass media to reveal that there is no longer a right wing and a left wing to the press in the USA, but just one voice that suddenly hasn't the foggiest notion about what to say to the public. So I'm not going to speculate about what is likely to happen next until I get a lot more informaton.
And here are my comments on the second point I forgot to mention above, which was the possibility of another financial crash similar to the one that occurred in 2008. This rarely gets talked about openly, but it's obviously a major worry for all of Western Power elites, and I think it's already having a hidden impact on the policies of most of the Western countries. And I forgot it because I really can't think of anything important to say about it.


reg said: I don't think that Trump could manifestly engineer what they call a "false flag event," but the powers and sympathies closely allied to his will no doubt try their best. Hungary seems to be some sort of test tube where the likes of Arthur Finkelstein experiment with their wildest theories, and we are facing a national referendum on October 2 which sounds anti-EU in its wording and plays upon the racist fears against Middle Eastern refugees.
RR's response: Trump's recent staff shakeup and radical changes in his platform may indeed be a "false flag event" on a very subtle and dangerous level. It's easy to see them triggering scary events in a number of different foreign country that Trump can then blame the Obama Administration for.

reg said: Which leads me back to Turkey. Erdogan is cancelling his visit here but the Foreign Minister of Hungary is the first state leader to visit him after the failed coup soon. Erdogan is openly dissatisfied with the moneys coming from the EU and the lack of assurances to issue EU visas to Turkish citizens without any further ado. What he can do is make the lives of millions of refugees there so bitter that they would risk their lives to get to the EU - his wording has been literally that he would "flood Europe with millions of refugees" if it does not do what Turkey (read: he himself) wants the EU to do. That would no doubt lead to incidents and not only the temporary strengthening of Eastern European fascists, but also to chaos and barbed fences and ethinc tensions in the Western part - which could lead many wavering Americans to the conclusion that the anti-Muslim card Trump is ready to play is after all more important than his defects - the coordinated response of these powers in cahoots (sometimes spiritually, but sometimes manifestly) could appear to some simpler mindsets grown on conspiracy theory as if Trump would have some wonderful intuition. Which is another way of saying that this is a war for attention, and Trump has no doubt been good at that as a TV host. However, the US is no sitting duck and the information warfare is two-sided - should more negative stuff turn out about Erdogan, such as his state's happy oil cooperation with Daesh or murdering a prominent Gülenist abroad, the tides of Western public opinion may turn.
RR's reply: It looks to me like Erdogan is running scared on both the domestic and international levels. Major terrorism is now occurring inside Turkey. Both the Western and Islamic politico-economic establishments seem to trusting Erdogan less and less. And I think he's finally realizing that he has no power over or influence in Russia whatsoever.

reg said: BTW Gülen is actually a very decent fellow, it seems one of his main tenets is that religion should be separated from the state and secular powers. Thereby he ideologically positions himself as a centrist within Turkey and within the islamic world - Erdogan openly prefers theocracy. Investigative journalists here interviewed a Christian interfaith supporter of his school today, and it turns out there is not even an umbrella organization to point at which would provide either funds or ideology to this network of schools around the world (allegedly in 170 countries). Turkish citizens here, on the other hand, are afraid to visit their home country because passports are confiscated on the border of Turkey from people who are allegedly "Gülenist." Another point - where Erdogan's policies stand on the losing side is that all around the world, schools allied to Gülen's ideas prefer English language education as early as possible, with examinations already by the end of eighth grade, high-level examinations and very good literacy in English by the age of 18. #16:One more attribute I read about the so-called Gülenists is that they always encourage several points of view in any debate, in school or in the media. This was the official policy of a major paper in Turkey recently banned by Erdogan.
RR's response: It's obvious to me that NOBODY in the American power elite wants to sacrifice Gulen to Erdogen's demands for his extradiction, simply because would make the USA look weak. And I see no sign that any of the US PTB know or care anything about the actual issues involved.
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