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 Will Trump Deport Flag Burners?

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1PostSubject: Will Trump Deport Flag Burners?   Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:57 am

There's now an item on CNN reporting that Dipshit Donald just tweeted that burning an American Flag should be punishable by "loss of citizenship and a year in jail". So has he decided that the POTUS and/or the US Congress has the right to deprive a person or citizenship, which I assume would mean he or she could be deported? I'm no constitutional lawyer, but I've always believed that laws can be passed that deny a citizen some of the rights and privileges of citizenship, such voting, but NOT citizenship itself. And if citizenship can be revoked, why hasn't this been done to the worst miscreants throughout American history? So I'm beginning to believe that Trump knows less about the US Constitution than I do.

Now, I've never burned a flag myself or advocated this as a legitimate gesture of protest. During my days a protester, I always said, "The Flag stands for the Nation and ALL of its citizens, so burning or otherwise disrespecting it is essentially trashing OURSELVES. Instead, we should carry the Flag proudly at demonstrations, as a symbol of all that's good about our country." However, I still don't believe flag burning should be criminalized, because at worst, it's just a symbolic action that does no actual harm to anyone. And if Trump wants to deport people who burn the flag, what about people who burn pictures of his own ugly mug or the members of his disgusting, incestuous family?
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2PostSubject: Re: Will Trump Deport Flag Burners?   Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:40 am

My legal mind turned on... What happens if a flagburner burns a custom-made flag made with less stripes or stars ... does it qualify officially as an American flag?
Also, there's a recent article on Guardian about the history of flag stuff in America.
Guardian article
I would say that I would avoid doing this and would not counsel anyone to burn the flag unless there is a clear-cut case, as there was while the Vietnam war was at a very inhuman and indefensible stage and there was a draft to defend the "free world" - while obviously, the US was a hopeless aggressor.
Still, it had another side - ask the boat people about that...

The other day I received this in a dream, probably from my Guides: politics is usually not black and white. The only state flag that is black and white is that of the Islamic State, or Daesh... which tells you a lot.

We have well-grounded preferences on philosophical grounds - mine is liberal democracy and peaceful measures of social justice towards a more environmentally and socially responsible form of society, but flag-burning may be an indefensible gesture in the eyes of patriotic or formal citizens, and these days of shared media and videos, it would haunt the person who does it forever. On top of that, it would indirectly refer to an invalidity of the federal state and the Consitution. Nevertheless, I am against Trump's proposed law (why on Earth does a President want to make laws anyway, when that is the job of the legislative branch...), for it is against free speech. If Nazi websites can be left online, flag-burning should not be a federal offense. It is another thing that in some parts of the country, you would be probably exposed to violent acts by outraged citizens.

Another question is that everyone at schools recites the Pledge of Allegiance (to the flag, to the nation for which it stands etc.). There is a legal contradiction there, though it is probably unregulated. So what remains is the crowd of "consenting adults."

I certainly would not punish an artist for this, however crazy he or she might be. It might be a different thing in the middle of a school or near a government building or an embassy though...

Another question that makes the proposed simplistic law problematic: what if someone makes a GIF of a US flag being burned? Does that qualify as flag-burning (suppose a law is passed)?
If a precedent is established for jailing someone for this symbolic act of violence or depriving them of citizenship, what is the next step? Mentioning the subject or advocating it in words?

So unless we transform into an outright Nazi style dictatorship - which I do not believe now, despite the expected damages of Trumpism, as there are still checks and balances, though no doubt he would try to dismantle a few, and unless are in the middle of a clear and well-publicized aggressive act, or a purge of our own citizens at a scale that is unimaginable in the US at the present moment - I think even the fringe right does not want that - I would not support it.

Personally, I would prefer if the US flag would generally symbolize a nation that has lived in elective democracy and the values of the Constitution for a long time on this Earth, no matter who the POTUS is.


Last edited by regmelocco on Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typos)
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3PostSubject: Re: Will Trump Deport Flag Burners?   Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:06 am

reg, #2:

reg: My legal mind turned on... What happens if a flagburner burns a custom-made flag made with less stripes or stars ... does it qualify officially as an American flag?
Also, there's a recent article on Guardian about the history of flag stuff in America.
Guardian article
RR: This actually got into the courts during the Sixties protests against the Vietnam war, and the decision was that burning such a "custom-made flag" doesn't violate the law. And ironically, this also allowed pro-war people to wear such "flag-like non-flags" on their clothing without violating the laws defining "inaoropriate display of the flag".

reg: I would say that I would avoid doing this and would not counsel anyone to burn the flag unless there is a clear-cut case, as there was while the Vietnam war was at a very inhuman and indefensible stage and there was a draft to defend the "free world" - while obviously, the US was a hopeless aggressor. Still, it had another side - ask the boat people about that...
RR: As I said above, I was an anti-war protestor all through the Vietnam era and I always said that "We shouldn't burn the Flag, we should carry it proudly ourselves, insisting that we are fighting to preserve the values that the Founding Fathers intended it to stand for. If Jefferson and Paine were alive today, they'd be marching with us."

reg: The other day I received this in a dream, probably from my Guides: politics is usually not black and white. The only state flag that is black and white is that of the Islamic State, or Daesh... which tells you a lot.
RR: Yes! The only similar flag I can think of is the one certain pirates flew back in the 1700's: a black flag with a white skull and crossbones on it. Some of these pirates were commissioned as privateers by the infant USA during the Revolutionary War and sailed into battle against the British flying this and various prototypes of the American Flag.

reg: We have well-grounded preferences on philosophical grounds - mine is liberal democracy and peaceful measures of social justice towards a more environmentally and socially responsible form of society, but flag-burning may be an indefensible gesture in the eyes of patriotic or formal citizens, and these days of shared media and videos, it would haunt the person who does it forever. On top of that, it would indirectly refer to an invalidity of the federal state and the Consitution. Nevertheless, I am against Trump's proposed law (why on Earth does a President want to make laws anyway, when that is the job of the legislative branch...), for it is against free speech. If Nazi websites can be left online, flag-burning should not be a federal offense. It is another thing that in some parts of the country, you would be probably exposed to violent acts by outraged citizens.
RR: I second everything you just said, and in fact, quite a few years ago the US Supreme Court actually declared flag-burning to be a legal right guaranteed by the First Amendment. I also feel I understand exactly why Donald Trump is harping on the subect so much: he's preparing all right-leaning Americans to approve as he appoints conservatives to the Supreme Court who will reverse this and many other liberal decisions of past few decades. And this will allow the Congress, which is now controlled by hard-right Republicans, to pass enough draconian laws to repeal much of the Bill of Rights. However, I'm almost certain at this point that Trump's rigging of the election was blatant enough to cause a world-wide collapse of the stock, commodities, and money markets which will bring down his regime and also destroy the economic power of his plutocratic backers, as I described earlier today on another thread on these boards.

reg: Another question is that everyone at schools recites the Pledge of Allegiance (to the flag, to the nation for which it stands etc.). There is a legal contradiction there, though it is probably unregulated. So what remains is the crowd of "consenting adults."
RR: Ironically, the Pledge of Allegiance was written by a left-wing radical and originally contained the phrase "One nation under law with liberty and justice for all". The word "law" was replaced with "God" by an act of Congress a few decades ago, but the Pledge still strongly advocates liberal values.

reg: Another question that makes the proposed simplistic law problematic: what if someone makes a GIF of a US flag being burned? Does that qualify as flag-burning (suppose a law is passed)? If a precedent is established for jailing someone for this symbolic act of violence or depriving them of citizenship, what is the next step? Mentioning the subject or advocating it in words? So unless we transform into an outright Nazi style dictatorship - which I do not believe now, despite the expected damages of Trumpism, as there are still checks and balances, though no doubt he would try to dismantle a few, and unless are in the middle of a clear and well-publicized aggressive act, or a purge of our own citizens at a scale that is unimaginable in the US at the present moment - I think even the fringe right does not want that - I would not support it.
RR: As I've been saying in lots of my recent postings here and on other venues, especially Twitter, it looks to me like the plutocrats who have been trying for many years to dismantle the checks and balances set forth in the US Constitution as presently amended have finally gone too far and sown the seeds of their own destruction. I suspect Trump doesnt realize this yet, but he's actually been manipulated by these powers behind the scenes into doing their dirty work for them, and I'm sure they're laughing like hell among themselves as he's drifting into acting more and more fascist. But they're going to stop laughing when the economic bubble bursts and they find their money and stock shares are
worthless.

reg: Personally, I would prefer if the US flag would generally symbolize a nation that has lived in elective democracy and the values of the Constitution for a long time on this Earth, no matter who the POTUS is.
RR: This is what I would prefer as well, but I'm pretty sure at this point that there's going to be a collapse which will lead to a revolution of some sort and most likely a new Constitution preserves the virtues of the present one but it better suited to the high-tech civilization we now live in.
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